NZFF

by **Ian Warren** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:00 pm

We will have to wait and see ... you are not going to get the same functions in the A2A model as you will get in a combat sim .. combat sim is shoot em down .. A2A is a P51 simulation .

by **SgtPepper** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:10 am

Jeepers a good healthy discussion we've got here, thanks Adamski for understanding exactally what i'm asking.

I am a huge advocate of A2A simulations, I have the mk I and II spitfire and as far as i'm concerned there's nothing out there that compares to the point that thats almost all I use. However from what I hear and read DCS are developing something, that is as far as WWII is concerned, groundbreaking, and think the aircraft systems are to be as well modelled as A2A, this is what I wanted to compare.

Wouldn't the simulation of a P51 in full war paint be more accurately modelled with an arsenal of weapons??

by **chopper_nut** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:31 am

I think I know what Ian is saying. I have found the same thing in the past where combat sims represent the fight very well but not so much the flight. IL2 and LOMAC were pretty good but still not a wholly accurate simulation of the flight characteristics AND systems, nor did they claim to be. Its a lot to ask of a developer for A2A style simulation with an accurate combat simulation. I havnt played any of the new DCS ones yet but from my experience, Ian is more or less correct.

by **SgtPepper** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:55 am

chopper_nut wrote:
QUOTE (chopper_nut @ Jul 1 2012,9:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think I know what Ian is saying. I have found the same thing in the past where combat sims represent the fight very well but not so much the flight. IL2 and LOMAC were pretty good but still not a wholly accurate simulation of the flight characteristics AND systems, nor did they claim to be. Its a lot to ask of a developer for A2A style simulation with an accurate combat simulation. I havnt played any of the new DCS ones yet but from my experience, Ian is more or less correct.

I know exactaly what Ian is saying and he is right when you compare some of the combat simulations out there especially the older ones.

I belong to an online squad and fly historical missions every weekend within the il2 platform, have done for about the last seven years, and yeah the systems are just a joke compared to even the default FSX ones, so I know what he is talking about.

FSX is old and cannot model a combat simulation with full system control too. DCS however seem to think they can, so far i've only really heard from people who haven't even tried it, which makes their comments as far as i'm concerned valid, but not accurate.

by **chopper_nut** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:58 am

Yeh well I guess time will tell on that one, I hope they can pull it off. Its hard enough flying the A2A machines in a friendly environment, imagine trying to fight at the same time!

by **Ian Warren** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:00 am

I would be impressive to get a sim that works in the same realm as A2As but be pushing the limits maybe another further 5 so years , gives you time to buy a system to suit it

by **SUBS17** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Although the DCS P51 is still in development you can still purchase it and fly it. When I viewed that video by A2A of their P51 I noticed alot of attention to detail which is on a similar level to DCS in systems etc. But the only way to really find out is to have both:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=77823

Here there are comments by people who have both.

QUOTE

First impressions of the A2A (very quickly typed, pardon errors please ):

Cockpit is very 'alive', ie moving anything makes a realistic sound (even throttle, prop, mixture levers), fuel/mag selectors etc etc etc Throttle lever has breakable 'gate' wire (something like that). Moving joystick also makes control noises. Excellent sounds in general. Needles have some weight to them, bouncing a little as you switch the battery master on, plus with airframe bounces (all typical A2A stuff I suppose) Mixture lever has a little metal gate control - in fact, it's a lot easier to see how the controls actually work in the real cockpit - for example, the radio channel dimmer is in fact just a little plastic sliding thing that slides over the lights at night, you can see the little lever arm for the fuel cut off valve move etc. Very polished and neat functionality, even down to the arm rest that folds down on the throttle arm side.

Start was normal (except....did the DCS model get the fuel cutoff valve a different way around? Going from memory, so it seemed odd, will check), counting 6 blades, mags on, once she caught (very nice sounds again, no instant change from cranking to running, a very realistic starting sound, and yes, I've seen a Mustang start!) the mixture went from cutoff to run and she spluttered to life. Did I mention the sounds? Both internal and external are excellent IMHO.

The taxi was exactly as I expected, and frankly I found it a lot easier than the DCS P51. Nice cockpit vibrations, including some low RPM shakes from the engine (it was still quite cold, at idle it was still a little rough) Absolutely nothing feels canned or scripted, it really feels like a very dynamic interaction.

The take off (and indeed all the flying I did, baring one particular thing I tested) feel very similar to the DCS variant. The take off is also a little on the 'exciting' side, with a lot of pedal needed to counter the yawing, and you need to be one step ahead of the plane, trying to anticipate pedal requirement before things get out of hand. Once airbourne, the I cleaned it up and flew a basic circuit, with some reckless flying on the downwind though! Control effectiveness and 'input per rate' seemed similar at first 'feel' to the DCS model, I can only guess that these two separate companies, both with access to the real thing, have come to the same model via different paths, a testament perhaps to their respective accuracy? My one gripe with the DCS model is the amount of drag created when sideslipping. The A2A model seems more plausible in this respect to me - in the DCS model, sideslipping creates massive amounts of drag, far more than I would expect. Of course, I haven't flown the real thing, so you can ignore that opinion if you will. Again, the A2A sounds are absolutely fantastic.

Setting up for landing was along the usual lines, and the touchdown (my fault) was pretty terrible - trying to hustle it into a shortish and narrow strip. One bounce and a few wobbles later (definitely didn't get 'stuck' down, as some complain about FSX!), I got it settled nicely enough, and could start to apply brakes. Nice progressive feel from the differential braking, a good thing too since I was almost off the one edge of the runway. At the lowest idle, we get the little puffs of smoke and a little shaking from the motor. Once I stopped, I shut it down where it was, after applying the brakes. Again, very nice slow down of the motor with excellent sounds, also some cool down 'pinging' sounds from the motor.

That was a very quick first impression. All in all, its an excellent simulation of a P51 IMHO - it's a very worthwhile addition to ones sim hangar, and easily justifiable even if you already own the DCS model. It somehow seems to have more of the nitty gritty details that a real aircraft has, compared to the slightly 'soulless' feel of the shiny new DCS aircraft that you are given every flight. Of course it has all the usual A2A features of persistent servicing etc, plus instantly adjustable weights etc. DCS's focus will always remain combat (albeit not a very populated world for the P51 at this time), and in this respect it cannot even be compared to FSX of course. Nonetheless, the A2A model simply cannot be written off because 'it's made for FSX', or 'it doesn't have guns' IMHO. The flight and systems modelling is top notch. I never felt a moment where I was thinking 'oh there's a typical FSX horrible moment with the flight model/name your FSX bane'. In fact, the two products have a very similar feel when it comes to flying (a good thing!) It is an excellent simulation of a Mustang. When it comes to just flying around enjoying the aircraft, I prefer the A2A model. That could change of course as the DCS model progresses towards it's final release form.

FM's - I prefer the drag modelling of the A2A model at high yaw angles, otherwise I cannot comment further other than that they feel quite similar with my system and control setup (TM Cougar, floor mount, extended, Saitek pedals)
Sounds - I must give A2A the prize for this, they are excellent. As Wags has said however, the DCS model's sounds are not all final/used, so we will have to see
Visuals - Externally, both are excellent. Internally, I find the A2A model details more clear, and it has more of a 'working cockpit' feel to it. Again, we're dealing with two excellent products, so it's not like one is 'bad' at all.
Systems: A2A is of course a finished product, and DCS is not. Suffice to say, the A2A bird is very complete - my first flight didn't find anything that didn't work as expected. This is really A2A's forte, and they do an excellent job.

This is of course only a comparison of the actual aircraft. The worlds around them (FSX vs DCS) are a story all on their own of course.[/quote]

This seems like a good comparison from here:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=77823&page=13

You cannot write off combat for A2A completely as in a year or two VRS Tacpac will have an SDK and A2A will have the opportunity to add Multiplayer combat capability to their P51 for FSX. A2A could probably also make addons for DCS World like Razbam and Iris already are.

Adamski wrote:
QUOTE (Adamski @ Jul 5 2012,8:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ian - I wasn't going to bite on your last few posts ... but here goes ...

You've dismissed all *current* combat sims on the basis of your experience of 15-20yr old [combat] versions. Sounds to me that you haven't tried any of the more recent ones - namely the DCS A-10, Black Shark, Su-25 (Burning Cliffs). Though these are all jet sims, they offer way more than A2A+FSX, IMHO - regardless of "platform".

What's more - Falcon4, with all the mods by Freefalcon (and older BMS) is still an *incredible* combat sim. Have you tried "Rise of Flight" - or are you dismissing that as well, without having tried it?

With respect, you really can't say that the 4 or 5 combat sims I mentioned earlier are "shite".

The latest version of BMS released recently version 4.32 has a new FM and many other improvements. The FM is actually better than some military F-16 sims and its free.

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