Owing money

[BigBird]

Hi guys

I know this isn't a legal advice column, but I thought I'd post this up in the Off Topic forum to get some opinions. Thought maybe somebody else may have been in my shoes or know the best way to approach these type of things.

Got a bit of a curly one here...

The story

Once upon a time I was out on the water fishing with a guy I know. During our trip, I accidentally damaged part of the boat (long story) and I agreed to pay for it. No issues there.

Over the last few years (5 years according to the owner) he has contacted me a couple of times saying he's going to get the damaged fixed... then I don't hear from him for a while and he doesn't get around to getting the repair done. This happens several times and last time was last year.

Then the week before this one been, I receive an email from the guy saying he's finally had the repair done and asks if I have $530? I tell him I don't currently, but will on the next payday (Tuesday just been) and tell him I will also need his details. I didn't hear back, so I then emailed him saying I would need him to send me a copy of the invoices and his postal address so I could send him the money.

He comes back, gives me his address and tries to laugh the invoices part off because in his words - "I sort of had it done as a homer". I then told him that I need the invoices for my tax records and that once I receive these, I will send the cheque ASAP. Don't hear back.

Didn't hear from him again until this afternoon via txt message. He asked if I had deposited the money into his account yet?

It's obviously going to be a small hassle for him to get receipts for this work because of the way he got it done, but it's not that much of an issue I wouldn't think and it's a usual business transaction. After all, you don't get your car serviced and pay without receiving a copy of the invoice do you!

The problem I have is that he never got in touch to let me know that he was actually finally getting the repair done. If he had done so, I would have asked for him to get me a couple of quotes and then if he had told me he had a mate who could do the work, I could have got an idea of cost and agreed with doing it that way. I'm not going to argue the amount, but I am in the dark as to how much a repair of its nature should cost. I mean, sure, if it was a couple hundred dollars, I would have just paid, but it's not. It's over half a grand! And that's a fair amount to me.

Now, I'm a decent guy and have no issues with sorting him out what he is now owed. I believe I am entitled to copies of some type of receipts for my records. Do you guys reckon I'm being a prick the way I'm approaching this, or would you do the same if you were in my shoes? At the end of the day I really just want to make sure I'm covering myself.

Don't hesitate to tell me I'm being a muppet if that is what you believe the case to be.

[ZK-MAT]

Here's my take on it (as someone that is involved regularly with legal liability and quantifying losses).

You have pretty much accepted liability for the damage, and you are not disputing anything regarding the circumstances, so that's what is usaully the hard part out of the way.

So, what are you liable for?

I believe that's "the reasonable cost of a repair or the value of the damaged item, whatever's the lesser". I'm not a lawyer but my understanding (and the way we approach it in insurance) is that legally you are only liable for the cost to put it back into a position that it was in immediately prior to the event, taking into consideration age, wear and tear, and current market values.

You could argue that the repair improves the value of the boat but for now, lets just assume that a "repair" is acceptable in your eyes, meaning that it does not turn a Mini into a Rolls Royce.

You have the right to expect the amount to be quantified. It's basic common sense.

Essentially the owner needs to present a valued claim, which should be supported by documents that detail how the amount was arrived at. In a perfect world that could be a tax invoice. In this case it's not "on the books" and it doesn't have to be - but it doesn't change the fact that time and material costs were incurred, you should ask him to get back-yard Johnnie to write out a statement with his details and showing how many hours he spent and what materials and costs were involved. You could then at least contact Johnnie and prove that he did it.

It doesn't matter if Johnnie was not paid in cash but was paid in beer or wild women, there would still be a supportable monetary value one could reasonably attribute to the repair.

Then once you have a breakdown of cost then you are in a position to see whether the amount is fair and reasonable - which could be checked by asking another repairer to comment.

You have been more than approachable regarding the issue and he cannot demand payment within a short period given a) the time it's taken to get to this point and b) the lack of proof of costs.

Hope this helps and is not too long winded!

Matt

[BigBird]

QUOTE (ZK-MAT @ Mar 19 2010, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have the right to expect the amount to be quantified. It's basic common sense.

Essentially the owner needs to present a valued claim, which should be supported by documents that detail how the amount was arrived at. In a perfect world that could be a tax invoice. In this case it's not "on the books" and it doesn't have to be - but it doesn't change the fact that time and material costs were incurred, you should ask him to get back-yard Johnnie to write out a statement with his details and showing how many hours he spent and what materials and costs were involved. You could then at least contact Johnnie and prove that he did it.

It doesn't matter if Johnnie was not paid in cash but was paid in beer or wild women, there would still be a supportable monetary value one could reasonably attribute to the repair.

Then once you have a breakdown of cost then you are in a position to see whether the amount is fair and reasonable - which could be checked by asking another repairer to comment.

That's exactly the kind of info I was after. Thanks for that Matt

[bluebird79]

Well, The owner should have done several things first.

1. Supplied you with not less than 3 quotes.
2. Supplied those quotes within not more than 90 days after the matter accured.

As the person maybe a friend and you might look at it a little different but he sure can not demand payment at anytime now !!

Cheers
Ian

[Splitpin]

I hope it works out for you BigBird.
And as for ZK-MAT......Surfer QC........DUDE ....do handle divorce case's

[ZK-MAT]

.. well, my bro in law's a lawyer (wife's brother), and my wife and I have been together 20 years this year, I'd be taken to the cleaners if I mentioned the D word lol

[Splitpin]

QUOTE (ZK-MAT @ Mar 20 2010, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.. well, my bro in law's a lawyer (wife's brother), and my wife and I have been together 20 years this year, I'd be taken to the cleaners if I mentioned the D word lol

Your a good man Matt.......congrats on the 20years

[BigBird]

Well, I sent an email off to the guy and he came back flying off the handle. His email was disgusting. In summary he said he had the job done as a homer and paid for it out of his own pocket and that as far as invoices go I can shove them and that he owes me nothing and to put the money in his account as stop all the BS. Then he goes on about how it has taken 5 years and I have not offered anything in that time. What was I supposed to do? He kept saying he was going to get the work done, but it never happened. Lol.

Not going to stoop to his level with any of my communications back to him, that's for sure!

[JohnM]

Tell him you hope he explains the $530 homer to the tax dept, like you will when your doing your taxation. Just make sure if you pay him ANY money that its tracable something like a cheque because he has to deposit it.Good luck with it and hey don't lose sleep over this......

[ZK-MAT]

Food for thought.... you don't have to prove anything to the tax dept if what you are purchasing isn't being claimed as a business expense - and I'd imagine this boat repair isn't business related. Even a backyard mechanic doesn't have to be GST registered until charging out more than $40,000 (to rise to $50K soon I think) and even then he doesn't have to supply a full tax invoice unless it's over $1,000.

There's no legal basis to request "x amount of quotes" either.

I wouldn't get too complicated or intricate with what you think are legal requirements as you will most likely trip up on them.

K.I.S.S. Reply to his email saying he has been given a reasonable time to come up with his demand however he still hasn't proven his costs. You are a fair man and invite him to present the reasonable, supportable costs involved in the repair. Else, see him at the Disputes Tribunal (that he has to pay for anyway).

Good luck

Matt

[towerguy]

just my $0.02

send him a cheque for $500 flat and tell him thats it and never call me again
he's obviously not a "mate" and never will be so just write it off to experience ( albeit bad ) and get on with life without the hassle of pricks like this.
ends 5 yrs of BS

good luck

[BigBird]

Cheers guys, I have done a fair bit of research over the past couple of days. Turns out the incident happened just over 2 1/2 years ago (I knew it wasn't 5 years) and I have since found out the guy had some additional modifications and cosmetic work done. That was never part of the deal and certainly not required as part of the repair. With his refusal to supply me with a breakdown, I decided to call around a few shops that do this type of repair work and got some prices of my own as well as transport prices and the total comes to considerably less than this idiot cited. Wonder if that's why he threw his toys when I asked for a breakdown of costs? I will most likely send him a cheque as an offer of full and final settlement, but it will be that of what the approximate cost would have been to me to have the work done. That figure happens to be around the $300 mark.

[dbcunnz]

QUOTE (BigBird @ Mar 25 2010, 06:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheers guys, I have done a fair bit of research over the past couple of days. Turns out the incident happened just over 2 1/2 years ago (I knew it wasn't 5 years) and I have since found out the guy had some additional modifications and cosmetic work done. That was never part of the deal and certainly not required as part of the repair. With his refusal to supply me with a breakdown, I decided to call around a few shops that do this type of repair work and got some prices of my own as well as transport prices and the total comes to considerably less than this idiot cited. Wonder if that's why he threw his toys when I asked for a breakdown of costs? I will most likely send him a cheque as an offer of full and final settlement, but it will be that of what the approximate cost would have been to me to have the work done. That figure happens to be around the $300 mark.

From the shops that you got the prices from ask them if they could give you a written quote listing the items to be repaired in a broken down form with all costs and send him a copy of the quote with a cheque for that amount only.
Or better still if you get two quotes from different shops say if one comes to $320 and the other say $340 then split the difference and send him a copies of both quotes and a cheque for $330 or a split difference of the two prices.

Good luck
Doug