I have just got home from a Careers Exbo at my college, and spoke with representatives of both private air schools and the RNZAF airforce. I thought I might ask for advice concerning which option to pick for my pilot training (if there are any RL pilots in the house)
I have my heart set on flying and am seriously going to start training as soon as I have left college (at the end of 2008).
I know there are certain pros and cons, like with the airforce you have a 10 year contract, and the chance of actually flying an aircraft is very low- where as if you went privately you have more airtime but it costs a lot of money and time before you actually make a steady income.
Money is not really an issues at the moment as my parents have offered to lend me the money to gain my PPL- but after that I think I would struggle.
My question for you is: what do you think I should go for- Military or Private?
Perhaps some a RL pilot with different experiences can give me some inside knowledge that would help me make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Military or Private?
30 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
by FlyingKiwi » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:42 pm
I'm having to make a similar decision to you at the moment; I think I'm going to go with the civilian option, but that's just personal choice. Would be interested to hear any feedback too.
Last edited by FlyingKiwi on Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
FlyingKiwi - Senior Member
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 4:17 pm
- Posts: 1688
- Location: Auckland
by Muppet » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:55 pm
Sure isn't an easy decision to make, and a couple of years ago I was in the same position. I always wanted to fly, eventually making the airlines but wasn't to worried how I got there. Military was pretty appealing, with not having the huge debt etc at the end and having a reasonable chance of a job after 10 years too. Strapping yourself into a Skyhawk or an F-16 (but thanks to someone 
) proabably isnt all bad either 
In the end though, health reasons kept me out of applying for the airforce so when I finished school I enrolled in a Diploma in Aviation course at Southern Wings Now in my second year I will soon get my CPL and MEIR. I've definitely enjoyed every bit of the course and its great to be flying most weeks as well as having great tutors to get you through the theory. I couldn't be happier with the location of where I am training either, with plenty of diverse weather and Fiordland only 30 minutes away.
Yes I have a big loan to pay off, but with the interest free now it isn't quite as bad. Getting jobs out of my course is still not that easy, but I will probably go the instructing path if I can next year. At the end of the day it's up to you, there are like you say pros and cons for both.
Fire away with any questions you have though, hopefully I can help a little
) proabably isnt all bad either In the end though, health reasons kept me out of applying for the airforce so when I finished school I enrolled in a Diploma in Aviation course at Southern Wings Now in my second year I will soon get my CPL and MEIR. I've definitely enjoyed every bit of the course and its great to be flying most weeks as well as having great tutors to get you through the theory. I couldn't be happier with the location of where I am training either, with plenty of diverse weather and Fiordland only 30 minutes away.
Yes I have a big loan to pay off, but with the interest free now it isn't quite as bad. Getting jobs out of my course is still not that easy, but I will probably go the instructing path if I can next year. At the end of the day it's up to you, there are like you say pros and cons for both.
Fire away with any questions you have though, hopefully I can help a little
- Muppet
- Member
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:38 am
- Posts: 124
- Location: NZQN
by ardypilot » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:08 pm
Thanks for the reply Scott.
I am definitly leaning towards the civilian option at the moment.
May I just ask how the 'Diploma in Aviation' course is different to the PPL/CPL course?
Cheers
I am definitly leaning towards the civilian option at the moment.
May I just ask how the 'Diploma in Aviation' course is different to the PPL/CPL course?
Cheers
-
ardypilot - NZFF Pro
- Topic author
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:01 am
- Posts: 6802
- Location: Auckland
by Muppet » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:13 pm
Well it's a Diploma course that's NZQA approved so as to get the student loan scheme etc. As part of it we also do business and management papers At the end of it you come out with a CPL and a multi-engine instrument rating as well as the business diploma.
At the end of it you come out with a CPL and a multi-engine instrument rating as well as the business diploma.- Muppet
- Member
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:38 am
- Posts: 124
- Location: NZQN
by Muppet » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:51 am
Well at the end of the day a pilots license is a pilots license. There is no difference between the CPL you get through a full-time course and one you do privately. You do get a few extras with the course though and its easier having it in one big package. Yes you probable do pay a bit more, but this varies a bit depending on where you study I think.
- Muppet
- Member
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:38 am
- Posts: 124
- Location: NZQN
by AlisterC » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:45 pm
Keep in mind the likes of Air NZ and Qantas won't let you in the door without a minimum number of flight hours. Junior pilots are often first thrust into the 2nd officer position on the 747 flying long haul out of Auckland. (I got this from the Air NZ webpage). I remember visiting Air Nelson when I was young, and having the Operations Manager point out a stack of pilot CV's on his desk. It's a competitive market.
http://www.airnz.co.nz/aboutus/careers/pilots.htm
Minimum Qualifications
Applications are accepted on the Air New Zealand Pilot Application Form, and to be eligible for interview applicants are required to meet the following:
Minimum of NZ Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) and hold theory examination credits for issue of NZ Air Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL) or equivalent foreign licence.
Minimum educational qualification is a secondary school qualification for entrance to University.
Minimum 2000 hours including 100 hours Air Transport Operations (Note: Most successful applicants have in excess of 3,000 hours, including 500 hours Air Transport Operations and over 500 Multi-engine pilot in command hours in aircraft over 3000kg.).
Current Multi-Engine Instrument Rating and BGT Rating.
If not a New Zealand or Australian citizen, hold a permanent New Zealand or an Australian residency permit.
Medical criteria for selection as Air New Zealand flight crew are the responsibility of the Company, and may not be equivalent to regulatory authority standards for licence renewal. Specialist reports will be required if there are restrictions on the medical certificate other than a requirement to wear spectacles for distant or near vision - From Air NZ.
You might start out flying cargo or mail, or, flying overseas before our national airline will look at you
http://www.airnz.co.nz/aboutus/careers/pilots.htm
Minimum Qualifications
Applications are accepted on the Air New Zealand Pilot Application Form, and to be eligible for interview applicants are required to meet the following:
Minimum of NZ Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) and hold theory examination credits for issue of NZ Air Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL) or equivalent foreign licence.
Minimum educational qualification is a secondary school qualification for entrance to University.
Minimum 2000 hours including 100 hours Air Transport Operations (Note: Most successful applicants have in excess of 3,000 hours, including 500 hours Air Transport Operations and over 500 Multi-engine pilot in command hours in aircraft over 3000kg.).
Current Multi-Engine Instrument Rating and BGT Rating.
If not a New Zealand or Australian citizen, hold a permanent New Zealand or an Australian residency permit.
Medical criteria for selection as Air New Zealand flight crew are the responsibility of the Company, and may not be equivalent to regulatory authority standards for licence renewal. Specialist reports will be required if there are restrictions on the medical certificate other than a requirement to wear spectacles for distant or near vision - From Air NZ.
You might start out flying cargo or mail, or, flying overseas before our national airline will look at you
Last edited by AlisterC on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
AlisterC - NZFF Pro
- Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:13 am
- Posts: 2543
- Location: Nelson, NZ
by SUBS17 » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:29 pm
Trolly wrote: I have just got home from a Careers Exbo at my college, and spoke with representatives of both private air schools and the RNZAF airforce. I thought I might ask for advice concerning which option to pick for my pilot training (if there are any RL pilots in the house)
I have my heart set on flying and am seriously going to start training as soon as I have left college (at the end of 2008).
I know there are certain pros and cons, like with the airforce you have a 10 year contract, and the chance of actually flying an aircraft is very low- where as if you went privately you have more airtime but it costs a lot of money and time before you actually make a steady income.
Money is not really an issues at the moment as my parents have offered to lend me the money to gain my PPL- but after that I think I would struggle.
My question for you is: what do you think I should go for- Military or Private?
Perhaps some a RL pilot with different experiences can give me some inside knowledge that would help me make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Aim high, try military.
-
SUBS17 - Senior Member
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 am
- Posts: 1745
by Zöltuger » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:13 pm
according to Fair Go, you should get the medical before you start flying
that way if you fail, you won't have wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars on training only to find you can't fly commercially.
i think if i won the big lotto prize, i'd quit what i'm doing at the moment and become an air traffic controller. not that i don't love flying, i just think watching aircraft come and go every day would be a cool job.
that way if you fail, you won't have wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars on training only to find you can't fly commercially.
i think if i won the big lotto prize, i'd quit what i'm doing at the moment and become an air traffic controller. not that i don't love flying, i just think watching aircraft come and go every day would be a cool job.
- Zöltuger
by deaneb » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:24 pm
If you can get into the Air Force as a pilot I'd go for it. The pay is good and after the 10 years you will be well qualified. We have had C130 and Orion captains that were in there late 20's early 30's. I don't think you'd find many people that young at that level in civilian flying. The problem I have with most flight training organisations is they are interested in one thing - taking your money. Anyone can learn to fly given the time and money, but few make it a full time career. After paying the big bucks you end up being an instructor, a co for a third level airline or finding work overseas to build up hours.
The Air Force selects pilots and trains them to meet their needs. Many pilots leave later and walk into airline and other flying jobs very well qualified.
Deane
The Air Force selects pilots and trains them to meet their needs. Many pilots leave later and walk into airline and other flying jobs very well qualified.
Deane
-
deaneb - Senior Member
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:40 pm
- Posts: 1561
- Location: Blenheim
by mailman » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:35 am
[rant]
This is only my own personal opinion BUT I wouldnt touch an university aviation degree course with a barge pole. Total waste of time and, just as if you had learnt to fly privately, you have no guarantee for a job (infact, it doesnt make you any more employable than someone else with the same hours who trained privately).
Also, if you do go military dont start flying privately before you get in...simply because you will have to unlearn everything you learnt as a civilian pilot.
Then again, one of my instructors had 150hrs in the book when he got cut from the Airforce because he failed his final check ride [as it turned out] and 12 hours later had his bags packed and was waiting for the bus home. So there realyl are no guarantees, even if you get in to the airforce.
Back to the uni thing, I really do have it in for these courses because you stump up, what, $60-$70,000 and at the end of it you have nothing more than someone who has done his CPL privately (apart from a frozen ATPL perhaps, which still means nothing without the hours to back you up) for a fraction of the cost of the uni degree. Plus some prospective employers like the fact you have done all the hard work yourself.
Do yourself a favour, after you have got your CPL medical, get stuck in to flying privately. Go and check out a couple flying schools until you find one that you are comfortable with. If you are someone who responds better in a structured environment then go to a flying school. If you are looking more towards the social aspects or dont mind as professional an approach to flying, then go to a flying club.
Get all your exams out of the way, do the CPL ones but perhaps the only exams you may need "formal" assistance with will be the navigation and weather exams. All the others are a piece of p1ss...just watch out for the f8ckers who administer the exames because in each of the exams I sat they all had basic errors and even if you mention them at the back where they leave space they wont do a thing. Dont even get me started on their 7 day turn around (meant to be their max time BUT in reality 7 days is the minimum amount of time it will take the useless cacks to do anything!).
IF you are truely serious about your flying then consider lease your own aircraft (either wet or dry). This could end up saving you a lot more money than paying on an ad hoc basis through a school. If money really isnt a problem then look to get yourself in to a syndicate or buy your own plane. You should consider these options if you are wanting to build your hours up during the block parts of the CPL course.
Once you do have your CPL you might want to consider asking your club if there are any openings as an instructor pilot. Once in you can work your way up (to B or A Cat if you are lucky) and then use the contacts you make to make progression much easier.
Another instructor I was flying with landed a job with the Air Ambulance Service that was based in Wanganui after we had stopped in for a cup of tea on one of my cross country check flights. So dont get caught up in thinking being an airline pilot is the be all and end all of flying.
A very good friend of mine (who was flying aerobatics in Queenstown when I last flew with him) got us in to the 747sim up in Auckland and as we were walking in a couple of students were walking out, completely drenched in sweat and looking absolutely hammered.
On further discussions with the chief instructor he mentioned that the burn out rate of new pilots (at the time) was round 60%...even more amazing when you consider the majority of these new pilots has scrimped and saved and worked really crap jobs to get the money together to fund their training...only for them to burn out within1-2 years of getting in to the airline.
Seriously though, NZ has the worlds highest population of pilots...at last count there was something like 5000 CPL pilots in the country. If you really are serious about flying for the airlines then you need to get somewhere with a large industry around budget airlines. People like Ryan Air and Easy Jet here in England are always hiring pilots, just dont expect great employment conditions (but hey, you young guys can probably live with that ).
BUT one thing you will be guaranteed of is that once you start you cant give it up!
Probably the coolest place Ive flown in to is Milford Sounds...you dont do that kind of approach every day
Regards
Mailman [/rant]
This is only my own personal opinion BUT I wouldnt touch an university aviation degree course with a barge pole. Total waste of time and, just as if you had learnt to fly privately, you have no guarantee for a job (infact, it doesnt make you any more employable than someone else with the same hours who trained privately).
Also, if you do go military dont start flying privately before you get in...simply because you will have to unlearn everything you learnt as a civilian pilot.
Then again, one of my instructors had 150hrs in the book when he got cut from the Airforce because he failed his final check ride [as it turned out] and 12 hours later had his bags packed and was waiting for the bus home. So there realyl are no guarantees, even if you get in to the airforce.
Back to the uni thing, I really do have it in for these courses because you stump up, what, $60-$70,000 and at the end of it you have nothing more than someone who has done his CPL privately (apart from a frozen ATPL perhaps, which still means nothing without the hours to back you up) for a fraction of the cost of the uni degree. Plus some prospective employers like the fact you have done all the hard work yourself.
Do yourself a favour, after you have got your CPL medical, get stuck in to flying privately. Go and check out a couple flying schools until you find one that you are comfortable with. If you are someone who responds better in a structured environment then go to a flying school. If you are looking more towards the social aspects or dont mind as professional an approach to flying, then go to a flying club.
Get all your exams out of the way, do the CPL ones but perhaps the only exams you may need "formal" assistance with will be the navigation and weather exams. All the others are a piece of p1ss...just watch out for the f8ckers who administer the exames because in each of the exams I sat they all had basic errors and even if you mention them at the back where they leave space they wont do a thing. Dont even get me started on their 7 day turn around (meant to be their max time BUT in reality 7 days is the minimum amount of time it will take the useless cacks to do anything!).
IF you are truely serious about your flying then consider lease your own aircraft (either wet or dry). This could end up saving you a lot more money than paying on an ad hoc basis through a school. If money really isnt a problem then look to get yourself in to a syndicate or buy your own plane. You should consider these options if you are wanting to build your hours up during the block parts of the CPL course.
Once you do have your CPL you might want to consider asking your club if there are any openings as an instructor pilot. Once in you can work your way up (to B or A Cat if you are lucky) and then use the contacts you make to make progression much easier.
Another instructor I was flying with landed a job with the Air Ambulance Service that was based in Wanganui after we had stopped in for a cup of tea on one of my cross country check flights. So dont get caught up in thinking being an airline pilot is the be all and end all of flying.
A very good friend of mine (who was flying aerobatics in Queenstown when I last flew with him) got us in to the 747sim up in Auckland and as we were walking in a couple of students were walking out, completely drenched in sweat and looking absolutely hammered.
On further discussions with the chief instructor he mentioned that the burn out rate of new pilots (at the time) was round 60%...even more amazing when you consider the majority of these new pilots has scrimped and saved and worked really crap jobs to get the money together to fund their training...only for them to burn out within1-2 years of getting in to the airline.
Seriously though, NZ has the worlds highest population of pilots...at last count there was something like 5000 CPL pilots in the country. If you really are serious about flying for the airlines then you need to get somewhere with a large industry around budget airlines. People like Ryan Air and Easy Jet here in England are always hiring pilots, just dont expect great employment conditions (but hey, you young guys can probably live with that
).BUT one thing you will be guaranteed of is that once you start you cant give it up!
Probably the coolest place Ive flown in to is Milford Sounds...you dont do that kind of approach every day
Regards
Mailman [/rant]
Last edited by mailman on Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
- mailman
by mailman » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:36 am
deaneb wrote: The Air Force selects pilots and trains them to meet their needs. Many pilots leave later and walk into airline and other flying jobs very well qualified.
Deane
Urban myth or not BUT there is the story of the 10,000 hour skyhawk pilot who got a first officers job with AirNZ on 747's after doing one check ride.
Mailman
- mailman
by squirrel350 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:43 am
Trolly and anyone else considering a piloting job I will caution you all on something alot of pilots I have spoken to about and that is using a student loan to obtain a PPL/CPL Fixd/Heli alot of companys see it as you just taking the easy way into a quick career and not doing the hard yards of saving the money and doing a few hours when you can most pilots I know took 2 years or more to get there CPL and feel they have really earned it rather than getting the tax payers to pay for there course obviously this isnt specifically my view on the matter but it is just something to consider be sure to shop around with different aero clubs and dont just go for the cheapest option do a bit of research on the CAA to see what there safety record is.
Another thing I have found is trying to find work in the aviation industry there are a lot of companys who will promise the world and never deliver it I have a AG Rating which means Im qualified to mix all types of Agrichemicals and it is still hard to find some one who is willing to give me a fair chance hence the reason for staying on at the westpac for a while longer at least grant has been kind enough to give me a fair go and teach me what I know.
Im not trying to put a dampner on what you want to do because flying a helicopter has always been my dream as well and it was really hard for me to swallow the reality of it not being as sugar-coated as I thought it would be I sent out over 20 CVs before I got 4 phone calls in response to them keep trying all the hard work and late nights will pay off and you will see it was all really worth all that effort now if only I could find 70-80,000 to complete my CPL-H.
Scott
Another thing I have found is trying to find work in the aviation industry there are a lot of companys who will promise the world and never deliver it I have a AG Rating which means Im qualified to mix all types of Agrichemicals and it is still hard to find some one who is willing to give me a fair chance hence the reason for staying on at the westpac for a while longer at least grant has been kind enough to give me a fair go and teach me what I know.
Im not trying to put a dampner on what you want to do because flying a helicopter has always been my dream as well and it was really hard for me to swallow the reality of it not being as sugar-coated as I thought it would be I sent out over 20 CVs before I got 4 phone calls in response to them keep trying all the hard work and late nights will pay off and you will see it was all really worth all that effort now if only I could find 70-80,000 to complete my CPL-H.
Scott
- squirrel350
by gokanru » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:41 pm
Well this has been a very interesting thread,and I am getting the picture that things today are very different today to what they were in my day.In my day we had to scrimp and save every penny we could to pay for our flying lessons.there was no easy way out for the majority of us,but oh boy it was worth every penny.I elected to become an agriculture pilot,that was my dream,and that was what I became.Even tho I had my cpl,my first job was as a loader driver,and I learnt the trade from my pilot,a fellow by the name of Barry Walker,he was virtually my instructor.I will never forget to this day,his words to me when I took my first load up and I quote(Don't do as I do,do as I say),unquote.Mind you,It wasn't long before I was doing as he did,under his ever watchful eye.Trolly,you are young and have your whole life ahead of you.
It sounds to me like you are keeping your options open and that is good,just take it one step at a time.Get your ppl,build up your hours to get your cpl.Learn EVERYTHING you can.If you have a question,ask your instructors thats why they are there.If you have your heart set on becoming a pilot,then do everything you can to become that pilot.I wish you all the very best,dont be swayed,set your sights and go for it,but one step at a time.
It sounds to me like you are keeping your options open and that is good,just take it one step at a time.Get your ppl,build up your hours to get your cpl.Learn EVERYTHING you can.If you have a question,ask your instructors thats why they are there.If you have your heart set on becoming a pilot,then do everything you can to become that pilot.I wish you all the very best,dont be swayed,set your sights and go for it,but one step at a time.
- gokanru
by ardypilot » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:33 pm
Many thanks for the lengthy replies.
Yes I am almost certain I want to go privately. I have a good few contacts already and live close by to Ardmore, so once I complete college next year, I will have nothing stopping me!
I know I will not end up in an airline for years and years yet, but I rather like the idea of travelling the world and perhaps flying some small craft around unknown destinations. I think it would be neat to ferry tourists around the Pacific Islands, but that's just one of my many fantasies
It's great that there are so many pilots in NZ, and I am getting to know them a few at a time. The ones I know already are a really friendly bunch and I am squeezing as much info as I can out of them at the moment. I'll keep you posted on my progress!
P.S.
Would you believe Easyjet actually train their pilots at Hamilton! Yes, NZHN!
Yes I am almost certain I want to go privately. I have a good few contacts already and live close by to Ardmore, so once I complete college next year, I will have nothing stopping me!
I know I will not end up in an airline for years and years yet, but I rather like the idea of travelling the world and perhaps flying some small craft around unknown destinations. I think it would be neat to ferry tourists around the Pacific Islands, but that's just one of my many fantasies
It's great that there are so many pilots in NZ, and I am getting to know them a few at a time. The ones I know already are a really friendly bunch and I am squeezing as much info as I can out of them at the moment. I'll keep you posted on my progress!
P.S.
People like Ryan Air and Easy Jet here in England are always hiring pilots, just dont expect great employment conditions
Would you believe Easyjet actually train their pilots at Hamilton! Yes, NZHN!
Last edited by ardypilot on Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
ardypilot - NZFF Pro
- Topic author
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:01 am
- Posts: 6802
- Location: Auckland
30 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Return to New Zealand Aviation
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests