Smoking and cigi's

[Splitpin]

If you smoke, as i do , your aware that they have just gone up by 10%......part of a program instigated by certain political parties, to make us all smoke free.
I just had a heated debate with a flatmate (non smoker, but drinks) about this.....he believes that smokers are a leach on the health system....etc etc.

I notice with interest that the price of booze hasn't gone up along with smokes......how odd...well not really, this spineless govenment wont upset the breweries, but it will bow down to a minority....who if you look at the numbers , have little if any say in how this red tape bound little back water is run.

If the people who support that particular party are concerned about their voters health, fine......dont sell tobacco to them, but dont involve me.
I am fully aware of the risks, and will happily pay as many ACC levys as you want....

NZ is a booze based culture, and no one dares challenge it....i get sick and tired of hearing about kids being killed, horrific car accidents, beatings, rape....you name it, how much of this is attributed to cigarettes?
Show me the stats.......lets compare cigarette related crime/anything else you want to name with alcohol.....you cant.

If i had kids, i would much rather they see someone having a cigarette, than some of the brain dead scum you see outside most pub's / clubs around the place.

Sorry to rant on , but it just p****s me off..........going for a smoke, while its still legal.................give me a break.

Marty , smoker.

[toprob]

I think the main difference is that you really need to abuse alcohol for it to be considered dangerous, whereas any tobacco use is dangerous -- including to those around you. You can educate people in an attempt to drink more responsibly, but there is no such thing as 'responsible' smoking.

I smoked for 15 years, gave up when my first child was born, and more recently my partner smoked quite heavily, so I suspect that my health issues may result directly from a combination of my early smoking and passive smoking.

[Splitpin]

Rob, i disagree with the statement about 'responsible' smoking......with a few exceptions, i think you will find there are more 'responsible' smokers than drinkers.
Re your health situation, Im the same.....everything is bad for me...smoking, drinking, stress, salt...too much looking at computer screens....but , i do all this in moderation, unlike our drinking culture friends.
I guess this will be an on going debate, but i admire you for your stand....but Im keeping mine.

Take care.

Marty

[Ross]

Hi Marty,
I've smoked for over 35 years now & I agree that there IS such a thing as a responsible smoker.
I personally don't smoke in our house any more since my wife gave up many years ago. I don't smoke in the car or in other peoples houses unless they smoke too.
I also am aware of other people around me and try not to smoke near them or especially near young kids.
I don't mind the smoking ban but even non-smokers here in the UK believe that pubs, etc should have a smoking room.
The government here like to be seen as anti-smoking but the truth of the matter is that smoking brings in so much money through duty that they will never really try to stamp it out completely.
The amount of duty brought in by the UK government from tobacco far outweighs the amount spent by our National Health service on smoking related illnesses & thats official!
Like you, I know the risks & am happy to take my chances.
As per usual, the small minority of inconsiderate smokers give us all a bad name.
I, too, have never heard of anyone commiting a serious crime cos they've had too many ciggies!!!!
Anyway, time to get off my soapbox.
Time for a ciggie!!!!!
Ross.

[AlisterC]

Once upon a time smoking was socially acceptable, but times change and it's not so much anymore (depending on the company you keep)
My hope is that alcohol binge drinking goes the same way. Maybe one day it will. It might be a 100 years off, but if even half of us brought our kids up right, we'd have it changed in 30 years..

But as you say, right now drinking is part of the national culture. If a radio DJ is talking to someone on the radio on a saturday morning, they'll always ask how hung over the person is, and "did they have a big night last night".. like it's to be expected that the person will have been out drinking.. So sad.

I drink only rarely (One glass at a time sort of thing) and I don't smoke (don't see how anyone could possibly afford to)
Personally I wish for every smoker to give up, for themselves, and I just feel like helping them, trying to encourage them.
Excessive drinkers on the other hand I have absolutely NIL respect for. So I'll give you that SP, I still have respect for you even if you are a smoker. If you are responsible with it, and take it outside anyway.
Drunks as you so rightly say are a blight on society. Fights, antisocial behaviour, domestic abuse, drunk driving, and then there are the long term health problems that everyone seems to conveniently forget about. But I suspect as long as the government is 'in the black' financially with alcohol, they won't care about the social costs. As soon as it costs more to clean up the mess than they make on taxes, they'll change, like they do with the smoking. Or perhaps it's just too big a problem for a govt to solve. The drinkers would simply vote them out of office! Smokers can't quite muster the same numbers.

You have every right to be angry though. Smokers might be a strain on the health system, but they aren't ALSO a strain on the police, the justice system, the prison system, the rubbish system etc. Smokers certainly are the lesser of two evils in my book

[dbcunnz]

OK to add my two cents worth I gave up smoking about twenty five years ago and yes it would be fine if everyone was a responsible smoker but there are those that are not and don't give a stuff about how it affects others if smokers could only smell the stink of tobacco smoke they would think twice about it all none smokers will tell you and smokers can not really smell how putrid tobacco smoke smells until they have kicked the habit and got away from the smoke for a month or more. I would sooner sit in a room of twenty people who have been feasting on baked beans and onions than sit in a room with the pong of just one person smoking.

[Splitpin]

Ross, good points...and i suppose i was on a soap box as well. Like you, i have no problem with smoke free bars and restaurants...in fact i think its great, i dont smoke inside at home, or in the car....and even smoke outside at other smokers places.
I will not be dictated too by a minority group, hell bent on some social engineering experiment.

The whole thing is just crazy....and if they get to $50 a packet I'll still smoke....or grow my own tobacco...untill they make that illegal as well....but i bet you could still brew your own beer or wine....complete pc BS.

[Splitpin]

QUOTE (dbcunnz @ Jan 6 2011, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK to add my two cents worth I gave up smoking about twenty five years ago and yes it would be fine if everyone was a responsible smoker but there are those that are not and don't give a stuff about how it affects others if smokers could only smell the stink of tobacco smoke they would think twice about it all none smokers will tell you and smokers can not really smell how putrid tobacco smoke smells until they have kicked the habit and got away from the smoke for a month or more. I would sooner sit in a room of twenty people who have been feasting on baked beans and onions than sit in a room with the pong of just one person smoking.

Doug, Im not sure if you want to be around me after a can of beans.. ...i know what your saying....i gave up for about 11 years, and thought the same. But think about it....what would you prefer, a smoker throwing a butt over your fence. or some out of control drunk doing whatever ....maybe thats a little dramatic....but its a double standard....and its BS.

[Alfashark]

I'm with you Marty!

For all of the non-smoking public out there, you don't have to like, or condone our habit... But, if smoking were to be legislatively phased out, imagine the vacuum that would appear in the govt accounts.
That vacuum would have to be filled by a rather large hike in taxes somewhere else, and more than likely it would be spread across every single citizen in this island nation...

However, we smokers *voluntarily* contribute 72% of the cost of a pack of smokes directly to the govt... I personally don't have a problem with this - a chunk of this ends up directed toward the healthcare sector - whether or not every cent of this is spent dealing with the medical issues associated with tobacco use, I couldn't care less.

What I would take issue with, is the level of blanket tax increases as a result of a mass cessation of smoking. Food for thought yes? Oh and don't get me started on the govt's new-found hobby... the war on obesity

Anyway, I'll skin up and head outside for a durry now

(̅_̅_̅_̅(̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅̅_̅()ڪے

[Splitpin]

Alister...thanks for the contribution....i think its just the double standard that bothers me most....we can watch ad's on tv for coruba rum, or the blokey Tui's ad's....but dont you mention cigarettes.
And as for the dont drink and drive ad campaign...what a joke...when its on tv, all the people its aimed at are too pissed to take any notice......cunning.

[Splitpin]

QUOTE (Alfashark @ Jan 6 2011, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with you Marty!

For all of the non-smoking public out there, you don't have to like, or condone our habit... But, if smoking were to be legislatively phased out, imagine the vacuum that would appear in the govt accounts.
That vacuum would have to be filled by a rather large hike in taxes somewhere else, and more than likely it would be spread across every single citizen in this island nation...

However, we smokers *voluntarily* contribute 72% of the cost of a pack of smokes directly to the govt... I personally don't have a problem with this - a chunk of this ends up directed toward the healthcare sector - whether or not every cent of this is spent dealing with the medical issues associated with tobacco use, I couldn't care less.

What I would take issue with, is the level of blanket tax increases as a result of a mass cessation of smoking. Food for thought yes? Oh and don't get me started on the govt's new-found hobby... the war on obesity

Anyway, I'll skin up and head outside for a durry now

(̅_̅_̅_̅(̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅̅_̅()ڪے

Ha Ha ....good on ya AS.....I didn't mean to start a whole debate on this tonight...but after the "chat" with my flat mate , i had to vent it somewhere....you bring up some very good points....like it or not , John K and company need us puffers ....time to light up another 50c .....

[Alfashark]

And, dare I throw the question of health into the question... I certainly don't dispute the fact that smoking can be harmful (really it's the method of administering the nicotine that can do the damage, but I imagine not too many people would be too keen on rolling up their sleeves every few hours to jack another shot of 3-[(2S)-1-methylpyrrolidin-2-yl]pyridine into a vein) and I don't wish to brush aside anyone's personal negative health experiences from it, but I shall state some observations I've made over the years...

I know a lot of smokers - young and old. Of those, I know of two negative health issues - One person was predisposed to an extremely weak immune system and should never have even thought about smoking in the first place, and the other was pregnant and stupidly continued smoking: She ended up in hospital for the last 4 months of her pregnancy...
However amongst the older smokers I know, their overall health would be equal to that of the non-smokers I know (From a broad variety of lifestyles - office drones to ditch diggers and everything in between)

A personal perspective comes from my father - a smoker from the age of 12, who up until his death at the age of 77 (in his sleep, choking on a strepsil) maintained an excellent bill of health... Superb cardio system (daily 3km jog down the beach to get another packet of fags, then home again) and general fitness.

Hardly likely to make Poster Boy in The War Against Tobacco...
I know I'm probably just farting against thunder here, but it's just more food for thought.

[dbcunnz]

The biggest mistake ever made was granting super markets licenses to sell alcohol they should take them away again and see how that affects the drunken culture we now have.

[Adrian Brausch]

QUOTE (dbcunnz @ Jan 11 2011, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The biggest mistake ever made was granting super markets licenses to sell alcohol they should take them away again and see how that affects the drunken culture we now have.

Yep I agree completely that was a gigantic clusterfuck lettin supermarkets sell booze !,..as for the smokes,..I smoked for about 12 years and am now happily 7yrs free of it. While I do dissagree with the massive price hikes I am always happy when another of my friends gives it up. I don't miss me, my breath and my clothes smelling like an ashtray either, I traded that for gun oil, jelopeno chillis and gunpowder lolol. Still love the smell of freshly opened port royal tobacco though

[Splitpin]

Thanks for all your input guys.....i didnt really expect that much , as i said ...it was a knee jerk post to a conversation i had with a flatmate. By the way, i am really working on cutting back with a view to stopping (again)...if my doc found out, he'd kill me before the smokes would....but again, thats my choice, and should always be my choice.

Cheers.

[madkudu]

Just going back to your original point re. the price hike, heres an article saying that it has kinda worked, just to stir things up
Cigarette price hike prompts quitting surge- Stuff
I think it has really helped those that are addicted but really want to give up, and a price hike was a good excuse for it. As for those with no intention to give up, just have to accept thats the way its gona go unfortunately

Cheers
Jimmy

[gojozoom]

I know this topic is long enough already, still, allow me to have a look at the subject from yet another perspective.

I think, that raising prices is the least effective and most arrogant way of trying to make a nation smoke-free (or drug-free). IMHO they should approach it on a totally different level.

These supporting organizations (Quit-line, etc) are re-active, not pro-active, therefore their effect is rather limited. The government should work out a program to be run in schools, where they:

- help you recognize the signs, that you actually have become addicted. As many other people, I called myself a social drinker...then, when I talked to a professional, he informed me that I was an alcoholic...he was right.
- make people understand, that it IS OK to ask for help with quitting and don't feel embarrassed about it. Most of us are not comfortable with calling total strangers, and talking to them about our personal, and private problems (it might be something to do with pride, too).
- and finally, the majority of addicts (count me in) became addicted, because they had frustrations/stress/emotional problems, and smoke/alcohol gave some relief throughout the hard times. You can't just take that from them...They'll replace it with something else...probably more harmful and dangerous drugs, or aggressive behavior.

If the govt want to see good-looking statistics in the health sector, they'll have to HELP instead of FORBID or LIMIT, and they'll have to do it on a more personal level.

To be honest, I can't see that coming....

Dan

[Splitpin]

Dan, great post....very refreshing and honest.....i agree 100%. Im addicted to the cigis....i did stop for 11 or so years, with the help of a product called nicobreven.....very expensive.

If that was made available to the smoking public at a realistic price , i think we would be on the way.

I started again (smoking) due to some major stress.. (the reason for that has no place on this forum)....but , even though i may appear too be taking the high ground in defending smokers...i really feel guilty everytime i light up....but i firmly believe, that it should an individual choice.
These days it really is a case of "name your poison"...cigs, booze, coffee, drugs....if your going to pick on one, at least have the balls to do the whole lot. (not you Dan)

Thanks for the input Dan....very worthwhile.

[Splitpin]

QUOTE (madkudu @ Jan 7 2011, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just going back to your original point re. the price hike, heres an article saying that it has kinda worked, just to stir things up
Cigarette price hike prompts quitting surge- Stuff
I think it has really helped those that are addicted but really want to give up, and a price hike was a good excuse for it. As for those with no intention to give up, just have to accept thats the way its gona go unfortunately

Cheers
Jimmy

Good points Jimmy...at the moment, Im one of those who just has to accept the facts (price increase)