NZFF

I would like to be a pilot. The aircraft I want to fly is the 737-300 for Air New Zealand or the B1900d's for eagle air.
I can start for my PPL in a few years but I'd like to know how I get to being a pilot for Air New Zealand and how much it costs (a friend said that they saw something like if you work with them for a few years, he said he thought it was five, they pay for your tuition).
Any info would be great

Well here is what I have done / am doing.

I am 14 and I am at Auckland Aero Club learning to fly mostly in the Grumman AA-1C ( 2 seat ). After getting my PPL there are several other things I must get e.g. night rated, multi engine rated, instrument rated and I may even become an instructor to build up my hours. Also the biggest thing after getting my PPL will be my CPL ( Commercial Pilots licence)which allows you to carry paying passengers. And allows you to apply for jobs at Airlines

The Catch 22 part is that Airlines only want to employ people with experience, but people can't get experienced unless they get a job flying for an airline, so this is another very hard part.

A few facts about the process of learning and licences of flight under CAA law in New Zealand

1. There is no limit to the hours you need to go solo you just need to be 16 and the CFI ( Chief Flying Instructed ) at you Club / Flying School needs to approve.

2. You need to 17 to get your licence

3. The big Money question, yes it does cost ( and quite a bit ) to do all this unless you want to go into the air force and get trained almost for free that way

4. Time, this is time consuming but if you love it ( as I do ) it isn't a burden, if you feel it is a burden maybe you should revaluate what you are doing.

5. Tests there are several exams you need to pass in order to get your PPL ( i.e. Radio, Navigation, Air Law) and there is more for your CPL.

And after all of this DO NOT expect to straight to 744, 777, A340 it takes a good amount of years to get there, you will start small 1900D and work up, (people do get breaks though ) hence why most pilots of large aircraft are in there 40's , 50's

Hope this helped

Regards, Scott

The Catch 20 part is that Airlines only want to employ people with experience, but people can't get experienced unless they get a job flying for an airline, so this is another very hard part.

Its catch 22

Hey,

Well At The moment im hoping to-

Get a PPL-
Attend The Internation Aviation Acadamy and achive the Rest of the licences-eg-CPL,Multi Engine Rating,IFR etc etc.

After the course, I will have a minimum of 500 hours, which will most probably enough to join a small airline of charter airline such as Air Capital or Sounds Air.

After Gaining Many hours, I will complete the ATPL and perhaps become rated on a B1900D and move to Eagle Air. A few years later I will hopefully Have the opertunity to gain a job as Second Officer at Air New Zealand!

Cheers Ben

PS- Scott has pretty much sumed it up. You Cant Get A Job Until You Get Experience!

Aim High, but make sure you start of low. It will be worth it in the end!

have you thought about Air Training Corps? i have a friend of mine who is (was) a pilot of atr72's for air new zealand, he has since left nz and is flying in the united arab emerates on airbuses 320's and 340's and is training as well. he started out with the ATC and progressed through that

Brennanx wrote:

The Catch 20 part is that Airlines only want to employ people with experience, but people can't get experienced unless they get a job flying for an airline, so this is another very hard part.

Its catch 22

Thanks

Right I better add my 2 cents. I don't want to rain on anyones parade but the real aviation industry at the moment is VERY different to the ideal. There is alot of wool pulled over alot of peoples eyes. One WILL NOT go to flying school and finish and go straight into an airline. It doesn't work like that, allthough these flight schools make you think it does. You have to start at the very bottom and work your way up. This is how it is.

You get your licences etc and then if you are VERY lucky you will get a basic most likely part-time job flying a lite piston single. The reason I say very lucky is that there are no jobs out there and loads of pilots who want them. A figger going around at the moment is that 7 out of 10 students who are finishing these courses at the sausage factory flying schools ARE NOT getting jobs at all and most likely, ever. Thats it end of the line, then and there. Big student loan down the pooer.
7 out of 10, no joke.

Now IF you are lucky enough get a job, it will be on something like a 172 (or if you are luckier, something bigger like a 206) or you get a job as an instructor part time flying the tommy or grumman or what ever. After you have done that for a number of hours you will move up to a full time job maybe on somethin like a c206 or as a full time instructor if you go down that road.

Now after an aveage min of around 1200hrs you might be able to find yrself a multi job, either as a charter pilot on a senica or aztruck or what ever or down the instructor road, a multi instructor.

Now you really need around 500 hrs of multi time before you will start being interviewed by the regionals i.e Eagle. Now you can't just walk in and get a job. It is VERY hard to get a job and thats only if they are hireing. They would have heaps of CVs and select a number of suitably qualified pilots for interview (around 15 for about 5 jobs. Different each time) and select those 5 out of 15 or whatever and once you are in there that is a big step passed. But it is still very very cut throat.

You would be in a small reagional for an average min of 2 years before you can move up (same process as the last and cut throat) to either 1st officer B737 or 2nd officer on somethig bigger.

Then work your way up naturally internally.

And after all of this DO NOT expect to straight to 744, 777, A340 it takes a good amount of years to get there, you will start small 1900D and work up, (people do get breaks though  ) hence why most pilots of large aircraft are in there 40's , 50's

Yes true but you won't start out on something small like a 1900. You will start out on something mini like a tommy or 172.

After the course, I will have a minimum of 500 hours, which will most probably enough to join a small airline of charter airline such as Air Capital or Sounds Air.

Now people don't come out of these courses with min 500 hrs. Its more like 250. And yes it is about what you need to get a job with them. But it's worth knowing the the first 500 hrs are by far the hardest to get.

On average, IF you get a GA job, you will spend an average of 4-5 years in GA flying small pistons before you will get in to a small airline flying small turbo props.

Its all good aiming high but the reality is, in nz you will have to start out low before you get anywhere near the turbines. And also remember, there are soo many other people in the same boat.

My advice if anyone wants it, because most of you are young, use that time to plan your TRAINING i.e where you go etc etc.

If you can, DO NOT got to one of the big sausage factory flight schools. the reason is, you are compeating with about 10 others on you course alone all for no jobs at the end. And theire quality of training is poor by comparison, and you are all just cloans of the last.
If I can reccomend, do your training at like a club or a small private type school. You will learn alot more, have alot more contacts for jobs, no one to compeat with and employers like hireing people from the small places rather than the big places, the smaller ones produce better pilots, if there is such a thing.

Take it on board or don't but this unfortunately how it is. If anyone wants any advice or want to know more please ask.

Sorry thats more like 20 bucks worth rather than 2 cents

A185F wrote: If I can reccomend, do your training at like a club or a small private type school. You will learn alot more, have alot more contacts for jobs, no one to compeat with and employers like hireing people from the small places rather than the big places, the smaller ones produce better pilots, if there is such a thing.

Yeah definately, I'm doing my PPL at canterbury aero club and the IAANZ people are always around, and I can confidently agree that at a smaller place if you get a nice knowledgeable instructor (that isn't chocka booked up) then you'll learn alot more, you end up just hanging out between lessons, getting contacts, meeting people etc. They'll put more time into you learning, rather than just making their way through upto 7 - 8 different students a day.


I'd rather like to learn at a smaller place, but hey CAC/IAANZ are pretty decent once you find the instructor for you. Don't just take the first instructor they assign you (this goes for any training institution), if you don't like or have ANY doubts/issues with them on your first lesson then ask to try a different instructor. They'll be fine with it. I was lucky with my first instructor, although she was pretty new at instructing, she had an awesome attitude toward teaching. She's gone off to London now, got herself a job doing some flying over there, small charter planes afaik. It's not all experience that makes the pilot/instructor, alot if it is attitude and personality. I've flown with a Bcat before that was a bit of a dork, he was a great pilot and all, but he really didn't engage in conversation and teaching all that well, maybe he was having an off day... I dunno.

Anyway, don't be put off by people telling you all the stuff about only 30% of graduates getting jobs etc

This would be a nice time to quote a friend/acquaintance of mine who's flying B777s for AirNZ now. It's probably some of the best advice I've got so far, even at my early stages of my PPL an old guy was at the flying club talking to me, and what I got from the conversation was that he was trying to put me off flying.

The best advice I can give you is to not, and I really stress this, listen to the many people you will run into who will do everything they can to make sure yo don't make it. I don't know what their problem is but they're always around in droves, at the flying clubs, at the bars and hangouts. I still get it; I asked a young S African co-pilot who flies the 747 for Nippon Cargo what you needed to get in there and all I kept getting was 5000 hours and a twelve inch c**k. It stopped being funny after the first time. But thats what you get. Just grow a thick skin and take all the advice you get, good and bad, with a bit of a grain of salt; to a point. You kind of have to find your own way through it at the different stages as you'll be making decisions that will affect your progression and direction, and you'll want to do it this way or that, and others, including my self, will have done it differently.

pois0n rant GO!

pois0n wrote: Anyway, don't be put off by people telling you all the stuff about only 30% of graduates getting jobs etc

Oh yes and please don't let my rant put anyone off !! No way !! I am just letting people know the truth because these people don't find this out till they finish the course and try to find a job. The places like IAANZ just want money and would never tell you that. I have heaps of friends in that boat with huge loans that they still have to pay off. If they had of knowen the truth before hand they would have done things differently

I must agree with A185F. The aviation industry is not what these flight training schools make it out to be. Guys I dont want to put you off or start a fight (or get flamed for this) but here are some observations I have.

All too often I hear the "shortage of pilots" being tossed around by flight training centres and promises of flying heavy aircraft with attractive hosties and a fantastic pay to go with it. But lets think about it for a second, think how many CPL's NZ turns out each year. Massey, Canterbury Aero Club, Ardmore and all the other centres and aero clubs. And then consider how many job openings there are for pilots each year, I'll think you'll find the two figures dont quite match.

Consider too, how much is all this going to cost me and what you will be earning over the time span of your carrer? Its too easy to say that its for the love and not the money, but love dont pay the mortgage. Lets say for example, instead of doing all those courses and spending all that money you became an accountant, then you can fly in your spare time in weather you feel like flying in rather than weather you HAVE to fly in. Which brings me to this scenario I had to deal with.

Lets say you've got a bit of flying work for a firm doing the odd scenic and the boss calls and says I've got a load of people to go to great barrier today. You look out the window and its raining and generally nasty. What do you do? You could say sorry boss, its too rough for me - but then you know he will just ring the next pilot on his books and ask him. Now he thinks its my chance to impress and agrees to do the flight. So who does the boss ring next time he wants a flight done, you or him? So thats in the back of your mind, so you feel forced to fly in conditions that are a bit beyond you. I can hear you all say "oh no firefly, that would not happen", well sorry it does. Ever been with someone in a plane doing an ILS approach who is not qualified to do so and goes below MSA simply because "he has to get this job done to keep the boss happy"?

Some of your first flying "jobs" may be for no pay - your happy to fly just to get hours. So income over the first few years may require some second job.

What about your medical? What happens if the unthinkable happens and you can no longer fly?

The working hours can vary, so think about the impact on this with your relationships and passtimes.

Its a tough industry, please dont under estimate this.

However, its also a very rewarding thing to do. No two flights are the same. Its challenging, testing, demanding, and very very satisfying.

A185F while I agree with most of what you say there are also a certain number ( or at least from AAC) that can become an instructor and then get employed be someone like eagle air. Also I read an article in Flight International a few weeks ago that the international situation for pilots is very good because of things like the rapid expansion of budget airlines so there is a lot of demand for pilots, and also when Pacific Blue started up that gave many new pilots a break.

Scon you must realise that one has to GET the job as an instructor, It doesn't just get handed on a plate. I will say that you are far better off doing your training at AAC with regard to employment prospects at the end, by comparison to ardmore flight school. They would much rather take one of their own than someone from somewhere else, if you know what I mean. and then you still have to find the multy job after that (unless AAC are doing multi training, work your way up the ladder there) Also mate please understand that the flight international thing is "as a whole". Trust me, it is not the case in NZ, or australia or many other countries for that matter. In europe and the UK in particular, the situation is very opposite to nz. You can find yourseld in the right seat of a 737NG with 250hrs tt if you go through the right channels. I know several people who have. A friend of mine in particular was able to get a uk parsport, he is my age (20) has 300 less hours than me, has been flying for 2 years less than me but he is flying as a FO for ryanair, making heaps Thats how it is

firefly wrote: Ever been with someone in a plane doing an ILS approach who is not qualified to do so and goes below MSA simply because "he has to get this job done to keep the boss happy"?

I bloody hope that isn't happening, don't be stupid and do things you're not qualified to

Well what any way you chose to go you can expect a long hard road before even getting your first twin job.
You should be looking forward to spending a few years flying the mail bag between some backwater towns and getting paid peanuts.
But this all part of the enjoyment of flying, meeting new people, go to different places and being challenged by knowing that no flight is the same.
If you can't embrace these challenges then maybe your not meant to make it.

My 2 cents

Also have a look at this thread that Trolly started ages ago:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/nzff/index. ... ic=319&hl=

There is some good points in there too

~ZK-KAG~

While I may be a little Biased on this I would agree that AAC can give more opportunities e.g. At Xmas I did a flight out of Kai Tak in Hong Kong ( in an R22 ) but there was no room left for bookings but they rearranged people to fit be in because I was a member of an International Aero club, also on Wednesday i am flying out of Wellington in a piper tomahawk, and in a few weeks I am going up to the oceanic room at Auckland tower.

All of this has links to AAC and it is a good experiencing gathering thing for me



Regards, Scott

scon wrote:While I may be a little Biased on this I would agree that AAC can give more opportunities e.g. At Xmas I did a flight out of Kai Tak in Hong Kong ( in an R22 ) but there was no room left for bookings but they rearranged people to fit be in because I was a member of an International Aero club, also on Wednesday i am flying out of Wellington in a piper tomahawk, and in a few weeks I am going up to the oceanic room at Auckland tower.

All of this has links to AAC and it is a good experiencing gathering thing for me

While you make a good point Scott and it sounds like you have had some good opportunities I think that any decent club or school you go to will provide opportunities like this. I my self have been able to do things otherwise not possible if I hadnt been where I am Also a mate of mine at Ardmore Flying School has had many decent opportunities too.

Just my input

~ZK-KAG~

been jump seat on the Saab twice and the Dash 8

How do you get in the jumpseat?

If i can just add to this.
For some people the only training facilities they can go to are the big ones. For instance I have to go to Ardmore Flying School as it is close to home and offers a student loan.
Unfortunately I cannot afford the cost of it out of my own pocket.

I'm in the same position as Trav; Ardmore Flying School wouldn't be my first choice if I could pick any flying school in the world to go to, but it's a matter of being able to financially manage it (albeit somewhat painfully) and be able to live at home and hence save money on living expenses.