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As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:52 pm
by Charl
I’ve had the pleasure this last week, of experiencing VR in a flightsim!
Graham Parker in Christchurch will rent you an Oculus Rift for a few days, and I inserted Aerofly FS2 into it.
To coin a phrase…
O.M.G.
Just to back up a step: AFS2 is in the early stages of development, which for me was an attraction because abandoning my beloved FS2004 and playing catchup with its descendants seemed, well, just too hard.
On the other hand, getting into a new sim at ground floor so to speak, is an exciting ride.
It’s a 64 bit programme (App actually, it runs under Steam which as a newb I find particularly painless) and so has no performance issues with a suitable computing device.
There is a whole lot going on, ORBX has announced its Innsbruck airport scenery for release in June. More will follow. How nice it would be to have a bit of beautiful RealNZ in there…(Robin, there is a SDK available for you!)
They’ve concentrated on the visual aircraft models initially, in a generic low-res photoreal world, albeit with a reasonable mesh.
I could pick out the Waitakere ranges in it with some accuracy, although NZ is particularly fuzzy.
You can fly around California, Utah, and Switzerland in higher-res at present.
Some pics, just screens without editing:

Image

The planes are visually well represented, work will follow on their performance aspects.
I did spend more time in the Cessna then one perhaps normally would, looking at how well done the pilot figure is :)

Image

The textures and the way light is handled, are exceptional.

Image

The last two pics above bring us back to the VR discussion. It’s very hard to describe what happens when you experience 3D in the sim, the most striking thing is situational awareness. I cannot wait to get my virtual hands on a helo.
The other is a sense of scale. Cockpits are really rather small spaces, no matter the aircraft. You don’t get that sense even in a VC in the 2D world. But in VR the switches are right here, and the gauges (3D with glassy reflections and depth) right there.
Similarly, in external view of say an F-15 on the ground, I got exactly the airshow experience of walking around the jet. It’s bigger than you.

The idea doesn’t really translate to 2D. I took this one in the Sopwith Camel, because if you stuck out your tongue, you knew it would stick to the metal. Absolutely real - and as you see, translates to a rather average screenshot.

Image

Over the years, I’ve seen what there is to see in flightsimming.
But this was a wonderful experience.
I can only say: if you get the chance, do try it.

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:06 pm
by jpreou
..and being in ChCh, how would one get a contact with Graham?

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:09 pm
by Charl
He's on TradeMe
http://www.trademe.co.nz/services/other ... 537518.htm
Tell him I sent you! :)

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:52 pm
by toprob
Great to see someone with a hands-on report.
I have tried the Rift with Prepar3d, in the Martin Jetpack simulator, and it certainly opened my eyes... the actual scale of things is so much better, ever flying at rooftop level of an ordinary autogen city is amazing!
Only one problem with the SDK at the moment, I don't own any of the supported modelling tools. But when they release the photoscenery tool, I'll definitely have a crack. I love FS2 because of the lighting/visuals, and it does tend to promote photoscenery as a real option -- made for me, really.

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:36 pm
by jpreou
Thanks Charl. I tried a Rift at Waikato Museum a few months back and found while the visuals of the universe were stunning, the resolution left an awful lot to be desired; reminded me of Descent VR some 20 years ago! Of, I have no idea what settings they were running but I came away thinking that for FS it was pretty sh* and wondered what everyone was hyped about! An opportunity to try myself and tweak over a few days will be most useful.

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:47 pm
by jpreou
I just ran the Steam VR Test thingie ...my graphics card, a lowly GTX 750 Ti, is *woefully* inadequate ... so tonight I've been researching stuff. First I looked at graphics cards (obviously); a mid-higher range 1080 @ 11GB Mem is some $1300. Then I found I can no longer buy the max-supported CPU for my motherboard in NZ any more (would have to ship in from the US and it isn't much cheaper than a new newer one). So then I started looking at motherboards as well. I might have to do this thing in pieces. Slowly. So the wife doesn't notice! :-)
...and I haven't 'bought' the VR goggles yet, or all the software upgrades to make use of it (P3Dv4 / AF, all add-ons, whatever)...

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:15 pm
by deeknow
Looks stunning Charl, thanks for sharing, be keen to hear more if you rent again or even buy a headset? :)
Wonder how much better it is than my poor old TrackIR

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:35 pm
by cowpatz
How do you see the keyboard in a VR set up?

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:54 pm
by NZ255
cowpatz wrote:How do you see the keyboard in a VR set up?

Is that a loaded question? :)

Short answer is you don't. VR is suited for simple aircraft at the moment. HOTAS

In the future you might have your hands and keyboard mapped in the game so you can see your keyboard virtualy. As hand tracking gets more accurate you'll be able to control everything with your hands. Through in a VR glove that simulates pressure and we might even have tactile feedback. A man can dream

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:05 am
by Charl
toprob wrote:made for me, really.
More than a passing thought when I first opened up the sim… the wheel goes full circle eh? Bit of Alpine flying maybe... wow.
jpreou wrote:I tried a Rift at Waikato Museum a few months back
Yes it might have been a “development model” you saw.
There have been DK1 and DK2 models, both fairly low-res.
Current version is CV1. It claims 2160 x 1200 resolution.
BUT, per eye that translates to only 1080x1200. To someone accustomed to 2056x1600 it is initially quite disappointing.
BUT, then your brain “gets it” and you are drawn into that 3D world.
I guess this might not happen for everyone. Some folk for example insist on 100fps and vow 95 gives them square eyeballs. There is only one way to find out if it works for you.
And goes without saying that a bleeding-edge computer will not hurt. I happen to have one only because some WIN XP programmes stopped working due to unasked for “updates”, and I had to get something to run WIN 10.
(My FS9 is still safely available on that XP – no internet – box and remains a formidable worldwide flightsim)

Dean, VR is to TrackIR, what TrackIR is to a standard sim. You really have a sense of Being There. It’s literally a game changer.
Of course, it’s early days – the Rift controllers are relatively recent and so have not found their way into the sim. I asked about this and they can and will be available in future cockpits.
cowpatz wrote:How do you see the keyboard
Steve, the Rift, by accident or design, lets you peer down your nose past the headset, and see the desktop in front of you. It actually sometimes adds to the immersion – as you turn and look over your shoulder, you see your real shoulder peripherally!
But of course, the keyboard is not the input device of choice, any more than a mouse or even a joystick.
I mapped all 12 possible fields into my Saitek stick but that isn’t going to help tuning an approach frequency.
Where VR is headed, is to enable “Virtual hands” (which the Rift controllers do a pretty good job of) and put you in the cockpit.
That means it has to be properly authentic in every way, so your Virtual Hand can grasp the stick, and Virtual Fingers can twirl the dials. It’s do-able now, although I have to laugh at the VR experience years ago, that imagined all this on a 486 computer!

In the coming weeks I will have a go at a Vive headset to compare.

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:08 am
by Splitpin
Charl .... you really know how to unsettle me :rolleyes:

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:16 am
by jpreou
Very interesting feedback Charl, thank you.
I'm building a new home in Christchurch this coming year (plans stage at the moment) so there is no extra money for Fligth Sim, and no room in my rental for it either.
When the house is built, I get my study, and I have the space to set the Obutto sim-pit back up ... then I'll be looking at what I need to do.
Right-now my current PC needs a new graphics card but otherwise would run VR 'ok' (guessing); just not sure whether to attempt to liberate $1300 for a new card now; I might just wait until I actuallyu get the sim pit back, check out the market for sims & hardware and basically start from scratch ... there is, of course, a funding issue ... but I can tackle that at the time.
Meanwhile, feedback and reports such as yours are very useful for keeping an eye on progress.

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:37 am
by Charl
Disruptive, certainly... :D
I'll quote John Venema on where this sits:
... these sims serve very different purposes. P3D is the premiere platform for simming today with all the sophistication included to allow deep system airliners, AI, ATC, a myriad of weather and texture options, thousands of addons, aircraft and much more. AFS2 is the smooth, fluid 'quick fix' sim which is suited to VFR flying and having a briefer session versus P3D
I just replace P3D with FS2004...

Jeff FWIW here's what I am running on:
PBTech Nov 2016 $2955.65
Processor
Intel Skylake Unlocked Core i7-6700K 4 Core 4Ghz (Max Turbo of 4.2GHz)
Hyperthreading, 8MB Cache, LGA1151 Platform
Motherboard
EVGA Z170 FTW, DDR4 support, M.2, SATA Express, SATA 3, High quality audio
Memory
16GB DDR4 Gaming RAM with heat spreaders
SSD
250GB SSD for VIP storage selection
Hard Drive
2TB HDD for all other storage
Graphics Card
ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080
Cooling
Cooler Master Nepton 120XL, 38mm thick radiator
Case
Cooler Master MasterCase Pro 5 Mid-Tower ATX Case
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNOVA 650 G1
Operating System
Windows 10 Home 64bit

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:38 pm
by jpreou
Charl wrote:Jeff FWIW here's what I am running on:
Processor: Intel Skylake Unlocked Core i7-6700K 4 Core 4Ghz (Max Turbo of 4.2GHz) Hyperthreading, 8MB Cache, LGA1151 Platform
Motherboard: EVGA Z170 FTW, DDR4 support, M.2, SATA Express, SATA 3, High quality audio
Memory: 16GB DDR4 Gaming RAM with heat spreaders
SSD: 250GB SSD for VIP storage selection
Hard Drive: 2TB HDD for all other storage
Graphics Card: ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080
Cooling: Cooler Master Nepton 120XL, 38mm thick radiator
Case: Cooler Master MasterCase Pro 5 Mid-Tower ATX Case
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA 650 G1
Operating System: Windows 10 Home 64bit


Ok, so other than graphics card and new CPU, I'm not a *million* miles away with my spec (below).
The Steam VR Test did say I was GPU bound and almost never CPU limited.
The Gigabyte mainboard can only go up to aN I7-4790k, which you can't buy in NZ any more.
Even so, current thoughts, given I won't have a simpit for 12 months is that I will wait until I get back in, then do an upgrade box.
Otherwise I'm in for $1300 for a 1080, and another $1300 if I want a new CPU which then requires a new MB as well.
Might as well just wait until I'm ready and get what I can at the time. Meanwhile, I'll keep an eye on TradeMe, perhaps, for a 1080 GPU; sooner or later someone on the bleeding edge might be upgrading...

Mine's a PBTech Custom Build (May-2014) as follows:
Processor: Intel i7-4770K @ 3.5GHz (I think I'm o/c'd to 3.8GHz but I'd need to check again).
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z87X-D3H
Memory: Kingston 16GB DDR3 1600MHz HyperX Beast
SSD (for OS): Samsung 128GB 840 Pro SSD
Hard Drive1: Western Digital Black 1TB SATA3 (for P3D ... and other games)
Hard Drive2: Seagate Barracuda 3TB SATA3 (for all other storage)
Graphics: Asus GTX 750 Ti 2GB
Cooling: Corsair H80i water cooler
Case: Cooler Master N600 case
Power Supply: SeaSonic G-750W Gold
MS Windows 8.1 OEM - now running Win10

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:47 pm
by Dinga
The Rift is a real game changer no doubt.The only thing that is holding it back is graphics power.When graphics cards that are twice as powerful as todays come out then we should start to see 4K resolution.The problem at the moment is also as mentioned not being able to see the keyboard,well you can see it but not very well.One solution could be using a programme called voice attack.It allows you to carry out any command by just speaking.I have tried it and it does work.Its hard to see how the rifts controllers could be used for a flt sim.The idea is you have virtual gloves or hands and then you use these to control the stick and interact with the cockpit controls,there fore doing away with the need for a joystick and throttle setup.Sounds crazy but it may work.You would still use rudder pedals or maybe virtual flying boots. :lol:

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:22 pm
by Charl
Yeah... or, you map your simpit controls back to the headset so you can "see" your hands and feet in the sim! :o

Re: As Real as it Gets - Virtually

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:08 pm
by Dinga
Charl wrote:Yeah... or, you map your simpit controls back to the headset so you can "see" your hands and feet in the sim! :o


Hey Charl now that's sure is a neat idea. Great topic starter by the way.
I don't have any sim pit here in the office, could get a little crowded. That would be the ultimate the home made cockpit along side the rift. Be interesting to see how this develops. I find it a bit hard now to go back to my 3 screens and Track IR. Although I enjoy the higher resolution you can use to see the full magnificence of the Map or model or whatever your looking at on the moniter.