Our Next Move...

Read and write about updates, changes, or any issues regarding the NZFF website and community

Postby Alex » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:04 pm

Hi guys, I'm going into 'Important Announcement Mode' here. :rolleyes:

This thread here is regarding our next move with regards to our hosting plan. Although our hosting plan is paid through to early June 2008, we expect to effectively run out of diskspace (or be left with such a small amount of diskspace that it wouldn't be practicable to continue running on our current plan) in 2-3-4 months. It's hard to give a more accurate estimate because we don't really have a lot of info to go on except an 'educated guess' by yours truly. ;)

We are currently using 623Mb of 1Gb. That number is a bit misleading at the moment though, as I've reduced it down from 800Mb today by taking the backup files offline (meaning I'll have to upload 280Mb of files (2) if something goes horribly wrong :rolleyes: ). However that change doesn't seem to have trickled through to the stats below, but 623Mb is how much we are using, regardless of how it is made up... :wink2:

Here is a rundown of how that diskspace is currently used:

Backup Files on local Repository: 210Mb
[color=#708090]Files sent over standard connection (unencrypted): 196Mb
Files sent over encrypted connection: Negligible (>500Kb)
[/color]Log Files and Statistical Reports: 36Mb
[color=#000000]Total Diskspace used by email accounts: 99Mb
MySQL Database/s: 82Mb
[/color]
Our current plan (shared hosting) allows us 1Gb of Diskspace, Unmetered Bandwidth, Unlimited Email addresses, 20 Subdomains (of which we are using none currently), 2 MySQL Databases, FTP, PHP, Perl, Python, Fast/CGI, SSI, SSL, MIVA, ASP etc etc etc. This costs roughly $180 annually.

We would prefer to stay with our current hoster for two reasons:
  • They offer well-priced, competitive plans, and we are happy with the support they've given us when we've needed it.
  • It would mean a lot, lot less downtime than if we were to move companies (with Option 1 having no downtime, and Option 2 having a small amount; perhaps a day or two)
After chatting with Andrew this evening, we've decided to open this one up to the floor. Vote in the polls above and post below once you've read the details.

We basically have two options here. We can continue with Shared hosting, or we can upgrade to a 'Virtual Private Server' or VPS. Shared hosting is what we are on currently, this is your standard webhosting; as many people will no doubt be familiar with how this works I won't endeavour to explain it in-depth here. What I'll say is that we can upload and run scripts, and run basic web server-side programs.

A Virtual Private server's main advantage over Shared hosting is the control you have over it. What it is simply is a share in a server that is seperated (ergo the 'Virtual' as it is not a dedicated server, and 'Private' because it is ... well private ;) ) from the rest of the server (which is split up into several VPS'). Under this sort of setup we'd be able to do all of the above as well as run tarred and gzipped programs (like Teamspeak, as well as more advanced server-side programs that need root server access).

Shared Hosting Plan: Option One
  • 2.5 Gb of Diskspace
  • I'm not sure what the Bandwidth would be for this one, as it was quoted especially and the regular plans have changed since.
  • 6 MySQL Databases
  • Other benefits are identical to our current ones, listed above
  • Annual Cost = $420; for this plan we'd have no downtime
VPS Plan: Option Two
  • An equal share in CPU power
  • 768Mb Guaranteed RAM
  • 1024Mb Burstible RAM (RAM we can use during peak times, but not guaranteed)
  • 10Gb Diskspace
  • Annual Cost = $1559 (+ one-off $50 setup fee). I'd allow 1-2 days downtime for this for us to ensure everything is working fine on the new server before we switch everything over.
Other features of the VPS plan are: Root access, Connect via SSH (or Remote Desktop with a Windows server) ,VE Start/Stop/Reboot - Manage VE services and processes such as stopping an offending task or restarting a service. Conventional shared hosting limits are only limited by the hardware we have available (i.e we can have as many emails, subdomains, MySQL databases etc as we'd like, whilst staying within our hardware limits for performance reasons).

The Invision Power support guys recommended 512Mb RAM as a starting point for a forum of our size. I've emailed asking for quotes for various other set-ups which I'll post here when I recieve the info. I had personally thought the VPS would have been the logical step for us to take; although when I saw the price of the plan we'd need to have I thought twice (originally I thought an $800 plan would have suited us).

Seeing as we'd have to upgrade soon, and as we're talking about it already, there are a few plans for fundraising a bit of moolah.

We could have advertisements here on NZFF. At the moment I'll say they would take the form of a banner at the bottom of each page. This would be a relatively safe and sure-fire way of getting the money to purchase the upgrades, albeit over a longer period of time.

We could do something similar to last year where we opened up donations through Robin's online store (thanks Robin!), or through another method of anonymous donation.

Or, we could go with something like this plan (suggested by an NZFF member); where we'd contact dedicated forum members individually and ask if they'd like to donate a certain sum, and be recognised as an 'NZFF Sponsor' (or similar) with a few extra benefits etc. To be honest we haven't really considered what we'd do with this one, and although it's definately an option, it will probably change somewhat if we implement it.

Please feel free to post any questions/comments here (as always :rolleyes: ).

Alex :)
Last edited by Alex on Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mattnz » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:07 pm

Well, that's quite a bit to read through at this time of the evening :lol:

Anyway...I guess that the the VPS plan would be better in the longrun, with that huge amount of disk space...however look at the cost! $1559 per year would take a heck of a lot of 'fundraising' for. But with the Shared Hosting plan, it's still plenty of disk space, but I expect we'd eat through that pretty quickly, and would have to look to another plan sometime later, correct?

As for how to get the money...not advertisements. There's nothing that I hate more than seeing ads on the page. And I swear....if I see that bloody 'fart button' ever again, I'll press the darn thing and see what happens (but then again, that's the aim of it?!). Either of the other two options are fine in my opinion, I'd be more than happy to give a bit of money to help :)
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Postby HardCorePawn » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:48 am

Are those really the best hosting plans we can get? They do appear to be on the pricey side... but having said that, I have not 'seriously' investigated hosting plans for a few months...
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Postby ZK-Brock » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:53 am

I don't quite understand the whole RAM thing on the VPS server, is that related to bandwidth?

Side note: Maybe to free up some disk space you could delete month-old topics that have no replies?
Last edited by ZK-Brock on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LMerraine » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:55 am

Depending on what you wanted to do when it is released (Free Scenery) if that's the only reason you're looking at upgrading.

If you released through somewhere like avsim, or flightsim and let their servers get bashed, I've easily got 1~2 gigs that can be used for holding files for the design team etc - for free, I just don't think I would be allowed to use it for the release of something that I think is going to be huge - popularity wise.

Again, my only problem is - I can't offer ftp access.

But if you're looking at hosting the zip file when it's released, that's something that I think would require at least the second option - last thing you would want to do is get your server bashed to pieces.
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Postby creator2003 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:14 am

Maybe we could hold a auction of old computer gear and whatever else on trademe all proceeds going to the server etc.. ? advertisement is something we have to watch on tv to see US tv programs etc "why not here "

plus run the donations again ,and a bake sale :lol: , that one is a joke
sponsors are good ,there are loads out there that make money from there products getting seen on nzff ...
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Postby kimz28 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:27 am

I like the Trademe idea, easy way to raise some funds, just need to have someone to look after it, and get members to make donations of sorts (need to filter out the junk from what would sell) I for one would happily donate some good used PC hardware, might be a logistcal problem though!!
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Postby Alex » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:51 am

Mattnz wrote:
QUOTE (Mattnz @ Jan 17 2008, 12:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyway...I guess that the the VPS plan would be better in the longrun, with that huge amount of disk space...however look at the cost! $1559 per year would take a heck of a lot of 'fundraising' for. But with the Shared Hosting plan, it's still plenty of disk space, but I expect we'd eat through that pretty quickly, and would have to look to another plan sometime later, correct?

As for how to get the money...not advertisements. There's nothing that I hate more than seeing ads on the page. And I swear....if I see that bloody 'fart button' ever again, I'll press the darn thing and see what happens (but then again, that's the aim of it?!). Either of the other two options are fine in my opinion, I'd be more than happy to give a bit of money to help :)

Spot on there Matt, at the moment we're still really in the early planning stages but its good to get things sorted ahead of time. As to the ads, well, we'd prefer FS-related stuff but that would depend how keen guys are on putting their money up-front.

HardCorePawn wrote:
QUOTE (HardCorePawn @ Jan 17 2008, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are those really the best hosting plans we can get? They do appear to be on the pricey side... but having said that, I have not 'seriously' investigated hosting plans for a few months...

These prices are competitive for plans hosted in New Zealand (something which was indicated that was desired last year). Getting hosting somewhere else, say the US would be cheaper but it'd be a hassle moving companies again. It's a doable hassle of course, but if you wanted NZFF hosted on NZ servers it would be unneccesary.

ZK-Brock wrote:
QUOTE (ZK-Brock @ Jan 17 2008, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't quite understand the whole RAM thing on the VPS server, is that related to bandwidth?

Side note: Maybe to free up some disk space you could delete month-old topics that have no replies?

The VPS is like having a PC dedicated to being a server; like an independant computer. Except it isn't, a server has been split up into a few 'Virtual Environments' and each piece of the server has it's own hardware allocations, how much RAM it can use, how much diskspace, CPU usage etc. It might be more simple to think of it as just a standalone PC with regards to the hardware. RAM is important because programs on the server need it to function (i.e. we've been told that we should plan for at least 512Mb of RAM to allow the forum software to run smoothly).

LMerraine wrote:
QUOTE (LMerraine @ Jan 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Depending on what you wanted to do when it is released (Free Scenery) if that's the only reason you're looking at upgrading.

If you released through somewhere like avsim, or flightsim and let their servers get bashed, I've easily got 1~2 gigs that can be used for holding files for the design team etc - for free, I just don't think I would be allowed to use it for the release of something that I think is going to be huge - popularity wise.

Again, my only problem is - I can't offer ftp access.

But if you're looking at hosting the zip file when it's released, that's something that I think would require at least the second option - last thing you would want to do is get your server bashed to pieces.

That's not really the only reason we're looking at upgrading. The main reason is that recently we've been pushing the limits of our diskspace anyway (although I've managed to free up another 200Mb, so we're ~350 below the limit). And it's not a suprise either, I've been quietly enquiring with our hosting guys about suitable plans over the last month or so and come up with these as the main two contenders.

I think hosting it here would be nice, although it would mean that it might not get as much exposure as it might were it hosted on Avsim and/or Flightsim. Ultimately it's really up to you guys as to what you'd like to do with it in the end as you created it. If you'd like NZFF to host it, and we're able to, then I'd be happy for it to go ahead. :)

creator2003 wrote:
QUOTE (creator2003 @ Jan 17 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe we could hold a auction of old computer gear and whatever else on trademe all proceeds going to the server etc.. ? advertisement is something we have to watch on tv to see US tv programs etc "why not here "

plus run the donations again ,and a bake sale :lol: , that one is a joke
sponsors are good ,there are loads out there that make money from there products getting seen on nzff ...

Thats a pretty good idea there Mike, I've got an old Radeon X700 with 512Mb of onboard RAM sitting in a draw doing nothing that I could throw in. :)

Alex
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Postby Timmo » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:14 pm

Perhaps as a start you could send a message to all users to have a look through their messages and delete ones they dont need- I for one could clean up my inbox but would have never thought to do it unless prompted....This should at least buy us time.


I also dont mind auctioning some computer gear I have and donating (ive got an average vid card and 1 GB of RAM sitting around that ive been meaning to sell for a while).

Another option ive considered, not for this reason specifically, is to maybe set up a tent/display at one of the airshows coming up to showcase what our flight sim community can achieve. We could push the fact that its all free but relies on donations to keep it going (i.e. a donation box as part of the display....not sure how much moolah this would yield or even what is involved in organising a display stand but its something to think about). As I said, I more thought of this just to let people know what we do and give some 'wow' factor but im sure a donation box could be run??

Tim
Last edited by Timmo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alex » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:23 pm

Yea, some more good thoughts there Timmo. Deleting forum info is not a particularly effective way of reducing hard-disk space, as the total of information is stored on that SQL database totaling only around 85Mb. The essential scripts needed to interpret and process that information take up around 100Mb of space.

But for those who are keen on giving their PM inboxes a good clean out, there are a couple of options you could do. You could either delete the PMs, or you could get them sent to you in either an MS Excel format or as an HTML page that can be viewed in your browser. You can arrange this under the 'Archive Messages' link in your PM Inbox menu. ;)

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Postby Anthony » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:42 pm

I will agree on the ads front - some ads are amazingly annoying.

Perhaps if there was some kind of low-key advertising that didn't get in the way too much, ads would be fine. But then the ads aren't as effective for the advertiser, and therefore probably don't bring in as much money.

Flash ads and anything animated I really hate, and I also hate those stupid mouseover pop-up things that have found a home at Airliners.Net. Banners at the bottom of the page aren't likely to cause many problems. Especially not if they're relevant and stuff the we'd be interested in (FS products, etc).

I think if there's enough people willing to donate money to NZFF to keep the community running on that alone, then that would be ideal. But with the VPS bill in excess of $1500, I don't know if relying on donations is enough. If we have 709 members, and 600 of them are active, then $3 each a year is doable and it would cover the bills. It would also leave some money left over for whatever.

Surely people interested in keeping the site healthy could find $3 a year?

Or failing that, then some kind of pay-and-get-benefits would be best.

As a personal preference, donations are preferable to ads, but I don't mind ads (provided they're not ridiculous).

Also, I think that a VPS server is the next logical step, if it is within reach.
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Postby Ian Warren » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:52 pm

Maybe before ...hic hum .. start .. what happened to early/previous donate start , 700plus members ... ok , not sure the stat's .. but Jezzz has'nt been a year yet ... then suddenly ..wow OK
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Postby kiwibarguy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:44 am

lets just all chuck in $5 in the post and clean out our e-mail boxes. With quite a few younger simmers in this forum, i am sure not many of them will have credit cards including myself and im 35. I can handle $5 dollars and if it gets swiped by NZ post it wouldn't be a massive loss. I would rather pay directly to you and keep this great download speed than see advertisements flashing up eating away at my own 5gig cap that im paying. :wink2:

I think this host has provided a great service.

Advertising is on t.v, radio, people's clothes, in your letterbox, on the phone just when you sit down for dinner, on the computer, on the roadside, in your house! enough of advertising. This is one place we are free!
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Postby Alex » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:43 pm

Ian Warren wrote:
QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Feb 12 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe before ...hic hum .. start .. what happened to early/previous donate start , 700plus members ... ok , not sure the stat's .. but Jezzz has'nt been a year yet ... then suddenly ..wow OK

From memory last time we raised around $330 (roughly), which nearly covered the cost of the board/blogs/gallery. I footed the hosting bill; as well as half of other costs (getting data moved off the free servers (which they charge for) and for conversion and installation of the database, periodic license + support charges etc), with Robin taking out the other half.

Yes, we have our current hosting through till early June, it's just a case of whether we will run out of disk space or not, which I can't really comment on as I don't have the latest stats. At the moment it's not situation critical, or anything requiring remotely immediate action. Just wanted to get some discussion happening. ;)

Alex
Last edited by Alex on Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby victor_alpha_charlie » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:25 pm

I don't mind ads as long as they're about FS products.
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