New Ideas?

[Alex]

Hi guys,

Just throwing out a call for ideas on how we can improve NZFF, either by changing things already here, or adding new things.

I've had a quick look around and at the moment am seeing whether it would be possible to add a cool video/voice/text chat system, and/or teamspeak. Although this depends on the cooperation of our hoster to add these as we don't have access to the command line prompt of the server; hopefully I should be able to give an update in a few weeks.

So, what things would you like to see added or changed? Please throw in your ideas here, so we can check them out!

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 16 2007, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi guys,

Just throwing out a call for ideas on how we can improve NZFF, either by changing things already here, or adding new things.

I've had a quick look around and at the moment am seeing whether it would be possible to add a cool video/voice/text chat system, and/or teamspeak. Although this depends on the cooperation of our hoster to add these as we don't have access to the command line prompt of the server; hopefully I should be able to give an update in a few weeks.

So, what things would you like to see added or changed? Please throw in your ideas here, so we can check them out!

Alex

Hi Alex

The thing I like about this forum, based on what I've seen over the last few weeks having recently become a member, is the number of developers hanging around. Other NZ FS forums I've been to seem to be more focussed around using the technology, rather than making it. The other cool thing about it is that we're mostly New Zealanders, so people understand some of the challenges/limitations of developing add-ons that are unique to our part of the world. I posted a question in here that was the same as one I posted on two other forums and had a response here within less than a day. On the two other forums, the question I wrote just sat in there and rotted and never got one response.

Personally, I'd like to see something happen to try and harness the creative minds and skills of the developers on here, to ensure we're all working toward the same goal

This is going to sound a little soapbox-ish and irrelevant but bear with me... One of the gripes I have with open source software is that there are so many developers, all doing their own thing, and releasing their work to the world. You end up with tens or even hundreds of different programs that all do the same thing. I've so often pondered how dominant Open Source Software could be if it were built with a single unified goal in mind. So many developers started from scratch and created a program from start to finish. They all re-invented the wheel. Think of the number of man-hours in producing one e-mail client. Then imagine how many man-hours are involved in producing 50. Now... how good would ONE mail client be, if all those developers were working on it together?

I'm not saying that the add-ons people are creating in here are necessarily open source, but that I think we could learn from some of the inherent flaws in the open source model.

I notice we have a list of freeware files, and payware files on this forum. That's a really good start.. What I personally think should happen next is that we developers come up with a goal. For example: 'to reproduce the scenery and aircraft of present-day New Zealand as accurately as possible'. If a product already exists out there which contributes to this, great. If it's payware, great. If it's freeware, great. All these products get put on a single list. If there is payware scenery out there that is of a high enough standard, there should be no need to reproduce a freeware version. What sense does that make? It's just a waste of resources. The same person who was going to develop a freeware version of say Real NZ's Wellington scenery, for instance, can pour their time and effort into making something else that contributes to this big goal. Once it's being worked on, it goes on the list so nobody else spends time replicating what has already been done. Or... they make contact with the developer and ask if they need a hand with anything.

This will be good for both freeware and payware developers imho. Over time, we can formulate a 'wishlist' and if you (like I am right at this moment) are looking for a project that you can produce to a high enough standard to sell, then you can start with one from the wishlist since you know there will be an audience for it.

Is this making any sense at all? Effectively, this thing would start by being a spreadsheet, showing projects that are either completed (payware and freeware), or under construction. Then people could suggest wishes and these would get added to the bottom. There are a few management things we could introduce to ensure that if developers go missing in action (such as Jason Grooms, author of Pro Controller, or Lee Swordy author of AFCAD) that their work is still useable by others.

I don't know... I'm on a real soapbox here and maybe I should get off it and see what others think before saying much more.

Richard

[Alex]

Hmm, not quite what I was looking for, but definately a good idea. It has been floated before a couple of times (or at least hinted at), but no coordinated attempt to get this sort of thing off the ground has really happened...

But yes, definately makes sense and a good idea for sure. I suppose it would just depend if developers are willing to spend a lot of time making products, and possibly some that they aren't so keen on doing, and perhaps 'on the whim' of the community here...

But if it works, it would be awesome, thats for sure.

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 16 2007, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, not quite what I was looking for, but definately a good idea. It has been floated before a couple of times (or at least hinted at), but no coordinated attempt to get this sort of thing off the ground has really happened...

But yes, definately makes sense and a good idea for sure. I suppose it would just depend if developers are willing to spend a lot of time making products, and possibly some that they aren't so keen on doing, and perhaps 'on the whim' of the community here...

But if it works, it would be awesome, thats for sure.

Alex

I'll give some thought to what would need to happen to make this kind of thing a reality. As far as developers and projects go, any one project is started on a voluntary basis. Someone in Waikikamukau might submit their local airstrip to the wishlist, but that doesn't mean it's going to get automatically given to me as soon as I complete my next project, for instance. I'm not going to get landed with a project I have no interest in, if that's what you meant. On the other hand, developing a new airstrip that nobody has ever done would hold a lot more appeal than releasing another AFCAD to add to the 5 Christchurch airports already out there, for example.

For me a big motivator behind this is to promote the payware developers' work. If someone knew that there was already a good payware version of an airport being developed, they'd be more likely to choose another airport or area to do rather than redo what has already been done. After all, people just want their add-ons to get some use.

[Alex]

That's true. Although you will get people avoiding areas that payware developers have on their 'to-do' list, as they will feel their work will be forgotten after the release of the payware. Its not so much a problem in the long-term unless the payware people announce what they plan to do in the long-term, which if delays and changes occur, which could put off people from doing areas for quite a while. So maybe some measure of cooperation will needed between the free and payware developers (or more likely between all people), and then I suppose there might be a bit of conflict between what the freeware guys want, and what the payware guys want (sorry for being a bit of a devil's advocate here).

But I suppose we're lucky we have some good guys here who are usually pretty good to each other (compared to some other places).

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 16 2007, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true. Although you will get people avoiding areas that payware developers have on their 'to-do' list, as they will feel their work will be forgotten after the release of the payware. Its not so much a problem in the long-term unless the payware people announce what they plan to do in the long-term, which if delays and changes occur, which could put off people from doing areas for quite a while. So maybe some measure of cooperation will needed between the free and payware developers (or more likely between all people), and then I suppose there might be a bit of conflict between what the freeware guys want, and what the payware guys want (sorry for being a bit of a devil's advocate here).

But I suppose we're lucky we have some good guys here who are usually pretty good to each other (compared to some other places).

Alex

No need to apologise. Devils advocates are good at such an early stage. Ideas like this only work if they are scrutinised and constructively criticised.

That is certainly a valid point. I guess the thing is that if we had something like this in place here, doesn't mean that people would HAVE to buy into it. Even if they all did, we'd still never get the entire market unless we somehow attract every person who might ever develop a NZ add-on to this forum and they stay here, so we're only going to have a fraction of the developers here anyway. For example: I might see that a payware developer is going to do... i don't know... Wanaka... soon. But I might be all charged after having recently visited the airport and want to do it anyway. All power to me, and release away. The thing is, I was aware that it was being developed and yet still made that choice. I knew that my efforts were probably being replicated by someone and in far better quaity than the quick whip-up version i threw together after Warbirds Over Wanaka, but I made that choice. It's when people head off to make an add-on thinking they are the first person to have done it, only to learn that it has already been done, that breaks my heart. Then we are left with two versions of one airport out there, one freeware and one payware. This takes sales away from the payware developers and wasted the time of whoever released theirs second.

Co-operation will definitely be needed, even without these problems, because it's a community-driven concept that only works if we work together. As I said before, all people want is for their work to get appreciated, either by monetary reward or just by sheer downloads. The way to get as much of that as you can is to concentrate on something that hasn't been done already, and this means playing nice to ensure you're treated fairly by everyone. Payware and freeware developers could both pull the rug out from underneath each other if they wanted, so a level of mutual respect and understanding would be called for.

The other thing this could do is open up a market for updaters. Aviation doesn't stand still as anyone who reads the AIP knows. So the release of an area will only remain current for so long. There's a few options for how we could ensure they stay current, again depending on co-operation and also on copyright and licensing.

[creator2003]

You make a good point there ,im with any joint effort to make a project ,be it teaching others what i know ,or whacking up acouple of models for some scenery ,the work together thing is good for me as these projects are long and sometimes slow due to not one person knowing everything ..

but its a hard job anyway getting a band of people together to make something ,hamz2008 started with 3 others now there is just myself really with my mate craig helping with parts now and again ,
I like the idea of a New Zealand VOZ but with high detail photoreal airports like most of the main APs we already have done ...


as for a teamspeak channel yip that would be a good start for everyone here to start to get to know each other better ,and bring our family together ..
also a random thought of the day topic ,or a bit of trivia , who knows ....

[Alex]

QUOTE (creator2003 @ Dec 16 2007, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

also a random thought of the day topic ,or a bit of trivia , who knows ....

Sounds good, I'll check that out.

About the other thing, I can't really think of many more negative things, except for the odd person who might spit the dummy and try and pull the whole thing down, but you can't really control that.

It would be so awesome for sure, and if we have everyone chipping in a little bit would make it easy on all. Also it might be a little self-sustaining; we could have new guys becoming interested in it and getting involved.

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (creator2003 @ Dec 16 2007, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

also a random thought of the day topic ,or a bit of trivia , who knows ....

I like these ideas too.

What about a section about NZ airports? The net is full of aircraft databases (such as the one at airliners.net) but very little about airports (ours at least). Maybe a history of each, info from the perspective of real life pilots, info about typical air traffic and a list of cool flights you can make from each (plus a list of the scenery files that you can have installed to make the scenic flights even more scenic).

[Alex]

Yea, thats a good idea as well. It can be a bit tricky getting large amounts of static content to 'perform' on a forum (which is created to be dynamic), but there is always a way of getting it to stick.

Keep 'em coming, a nice list of things to keep me occupied over the hols would be nice.

Alex

[Naki]

QUOTE

It would be so awesome for sure, and if we have everyone chipping in a little bit would make it easy on all. Also it might be a little self-sustaining; we could have new guys becoming interested in it and getting involved.[/quote]
Yeah if we all did that we could have something like NOZ New ZelOndaZ but yeah would be really cool ..

personally the biggest change and a good one would be NZFF teamspeak channels ,one for multiplay and hot chat for those wanting to get to know each other and explain problems better that they mite be having ...and of course a quick chat type shout box down the side ..

the Airport thing is a good topic info idea aswell ,like a one stop shop for all your local sim AP needs ,

[Alex]

Yeap, having the Teamspeak would be really cool, but at the moment it's really up to our hosters as to whether they are able to implement it (as I understand it isn't overly simple to add Teamspeak (freeware) to a package that is paid for, a certain percentage must go back to TS or something), so we'll have to wait and hope they sort something out. Although hopefully in future (maybe 6 months or so at the most?) we will be able to definately host one ourselves.

The airport thing would be cool as well, although the initial burst getting something set up can be fun, it's much less fun maintaining it as things change (I have an old system set up here that is no longer used, but perhaps gives an idea of the things that have to be checked if you want an accurate database). If people are keen for it then it shouldn't be a problem though, especially if we have some real-world guys' input.

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 16 2007, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea, thats a good idea as well. It can be a bit tricky getting large amounts of static content to 'perform' on a forum (which is created to be dynamic), but there is always a way of getting it to stick.

I hear what you're saying, although I am of the opinion that in order to be of much use to people, content on any site needs at least some degree of input. By this, I mean things like newsletters etc that are dynamic but require an author and aren't just computer generated. If it's 'dynamic but requiring minimal input' then it's often technology-driven rather than needs-driven (eg what can we do with this cool technology?, rather than what technology do we need to use to achieve this particular task?). Sure, we could have automatic scripts that poll the various online servers and show current weather at NZ airports, online air movements and show the last time people were online etc... But this would be reproducing what has already been done on other forums and borders on being driven by technology, rather than by any real need in my view.

I'm not damning of all dynamic content fullstop. I'm really just saying that often people go in with some really 'cool' technology that doesn't really offer any new attraction to what is already in place. It might start off with a hiss and a roar but could well decline. A good source of information, on the other hand, will always be. For a technical person, I'm quite a skeptic when it comes to things like this I know! A lot of the latest 'big things' on the net (MySpace, Bebo, Wikipedia, even Airliners.net) have become big, not because of any technology used on them but because of their content.

As I get older, my focus has tended to move away from the "Technology" toward the "Information" in "Information Technology".

[Alex]

Mmm yea. Just wondering Richard, what do you think would be an effective way of presenting it? I suppose we could use a forum thread to do it, but that could be messy and time-consuming. Thoughts?

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 17 2007, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mmm yea. Just wondering Richard, what do you think would be an effective way of presenting it? I suppose we could use a forum thread to do it, but that could be messy and time-consuming. Thoughts?

Hmm... the first thing that springs to my mind is a Wiki. Could also be useful if we were to do anything with the add-ons list. Anyone who is a member can edit, and if someone deletes data you've got the ability to go back to any point in history. Only downside is that users need to be reasonably familiar with the formatting syntax, otherwise we won't have a standard layout for all entries.

[Alex]

Hmm yea, thats what I thought of too. We have a Wiki application included with our hosting package, and I was setting that up just now but it seems there is an error (re: PHP version), so have referred it on to be looked at...

Alex

[Naki]

A payware reviews section where people can post their reviews of payware flightsim products (hardware/ & software) would be good - although this will have to be policed and vetted properly

[Alex]

Yeap, thats a good idea Paul. How did you envisage we do this, just via the forum, or some other way?

When you say that it must be policed and vetted properly, would this be to ensure that the reviews are quality stuff, or that they are unbiased, or both?

Alex

[Naki]

Yeah via the forum & yes the vetting to ensure they are of good quality & that they are not biased - ie to stop persons slagging off about a product because they don't like the producer for what ever reason or promoting a product for a mate.

The main reason I go to Avsim/Flightsim is to read the reviews - I am sure if we post reviews here of good quality it will bring more people to the site.

Paul

[creator2003]

I dont think we need a topic just for that ,i mean in one way or another we already do ,
payware is everywhere and if someone wants to ask the question youll have a number of people here on the forum answer them back about the product, like the recent pmdg 1900 topic in AC .
i just think that its alittle over the top to plug payware anymore than what we do here already "opinion"