Editing Poll

[Adamski]

Personally, I'm not finding this thread particularly unpleasant, abusive or anything. Some pretty divergent views etc. but that's good

I've been thinking about this (!). I've been a [graphic] designer for most of my life, so I know what it takes to produce a "good image" (digital or otherwise) for various uses. Certainly, a decent banner (along with decent graphics throughout a site) make the experience pleasurable ... for another designer ... but I'm a frequent visitor to many sites that look absolutely disgusting yet have great content.

The reason why I poke my nose into this site/forums is that I'm keen to see how flight sims can be made to perform better - either from an aesthetic or functional P.O.V. So ... when I see a stunning screenshot, I'm desperately keen to know how it was achieved - what scenery, repaint etc. I'm really *not* interested in fancy Photoshop graphics (that's my *day* job!) ... I want to see something that I can try to replicate on my system. I want to see if it is indeed "as real as it gets" [ahem!].

As I'm unlikely to ever be rich enough (or young enough!!) to fly the real thing, I have to resort to my [sad] little dream ... on my [sad] little PC. If I want ART, I can go almost anywhere (or just look out of my window) ... but I'd like to see flightsim content on a flightsim related site.

[Alex]

I'd personally prefer to see things stay as they are now. Or we do a bit of an overhaul and start calling the competition what it really would be, "FS Art" or something down those lines...

We've seen some extraordinary screenshots come out of this competition, with this rule I think we are just narrowing the focus, people start working on composition, angles, location and every other aspect they can think of. The result? Ideally, some really excellent, stunning entries, and that can't be a bad thing. Over these last few months we've seen some really good entries, I think some of the runner-up entries could have challenged some past winners! So, not allowing people to edit a photo into the screenshot will kill the competition? Rubbish.

We've had some people say it's only the new people who are making this fuss (implying that we should only listen to people that have been here x amount of time, regardless of their experience). I hope people don't mind if I say that I have been here for some while (Jul 06), and other members who have been here from the start also support the current rule, Charl etc. What's wrong with people having some sort of input? I reckon that the date people joined should have no impact on how they are able to have their say, pointing fingers and devaluing comments will have no positive outcome, and nothing good comes from it; everyone has had different experiences and all are able to add their knowledge to the forum. So, only new people are causing a fuss, and people should feel annoyed that they are having their say? Rubbish.

This screenshot competition has never been completely even. Some people fork out on high-quality aircraft, scenery, or environmental products for their sim. Others spend their money on the latest hardware, or software. If the designers out there want to make scenery to enhance a region for the specific purpose of making their shot 'the winner'; they're pointing at the wrong place if they blame the rules. They should be pointing at themselves. So, this rule makes it more unfair? Rubbish.

I suppose it depends whether you want people to focus on photoshop skills, or finding new places, working new angles, trying new methods, experimenting with the sim to find the 'perfect' moment they want to show to the forums. What do you want people coming into these forums to see? Something that they could only achieve after working for hours to make some custom scenery, or working with Photoshop to edit in a picture ..... or would you like them to see a picture that invites them to try new aircraft, see if they can find that same spot in their Simulator, work to enhance their experience and come out of the whole thing with something tangible.

Alex

[toprob]

I remember doing a management course hundreds of years ago. After a particularly long day, we were given one last exercise before we could go off to the bar. We were divided into 2 groups, and the others became the 'workers' and went through to another room. We were the 'management'. We were told that the other group had a delivery, and were awaiting instructions. We had to tell them what to do with the delivery before they could go 'home'. We were not given any other information.

I suggested that we tell the workers to leave the delivery where it was and go home. One other 'manager' wanted us to figure out what the delivery was, so that we could decide what to do with it. I thought it didn't matter. After a bumpy couple of hours, we managed to finish the exercise, I forget how. By then I'd lost all interest.

The tutor said we were not the slowest group, but certainly not the fastest. Apparently the fastest group just told the workers to go home, and ended up in the bar after a minute and a half.

Because the problem was unknown -- and unknowable -- some people needed to define it some other way, by applying a strict set of rules. This allows them to be involved in making a decision, and being comfortable with that decision, even if they don't really understand what the goal is. I see the same situation here -- by following a set of rules, some members may feel more encouraged to enter a screenshot, even those who don't understand what the goal is. I've read a lot of thoughts on what the goal should be, but each time it is defined, it is limited a little more. I like the fact that in the past we haven't had to limit this in any way -- enter a screenshot (based on your OWN definition) and the members get to vote for what they like the most. What could be more democratic than that? We could apply a few more rules, or a lot of rules, but they won't serve any purpose except to help those who don't understand the simple goal. And really what they need is to be educated, rather than restricted, so that's why I like this discussion, it allows everyone to state their opinion, learn from others and evolve their understanding as they take on these other views.

Some people like rules, some people don't. Some members would be surprised to learn that the rules which govern this forum are the bare minimum to ensure that the forum doesn't break any laws, and that it doesn't end up destroying itself.

I would like to make one suggestion to those who don't agree with the final decision (whatever it may be.) Don't let it get you down, continue to support the comp, because after all that's the important bit.

I've said before that I'm not that keen on letting the forum make decisions like this. That's the administrator's job. This particular subject is a very good illustration of this. Sure, the forum has spoken, but what we end up with is simply more rules. I would bet money on there being absolutely no change to the important aspects of the screenshot competition -- that is, how much interest there is, how many enter and how many vote.

[Bandit]

Well I don't think I can add more than what has already been covered by others, but here comes my 2 cents anyway.

To me the name says it all - "Screenshot". To me that means a shot taken by me while I am in the sim.
I may improve the brightness/contrast of the pic but the content of the shot remains as captured when I pressed the "smile for the birdie" button.

Normally I don't even do that - I prefer to change the time of day and weather to try and capture the mood I'm after.

I have the ability to edit pics and add other objects but I choose not too, as too me it is no longer a screenshot of what I saw and captured while I was doing the flight.

I agree that there have been some excellent images manufactured and to those who have done so, well done and great work. It is a matter of personal choice.

But for myself I don't consider them screenshots. Screen art is probably a good term and takes nothing away from the work that has gone into making the image.

[toprob]

QUOTE (Bandit @ May 5 2008, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me the name says it all - "Screenshot". To me that means a shot taken by me while I am in the sim.
I may improve the brightness/contrast of the pic but the content of the shot remains as captured when I pressed the "smile for the birdie" button.

Which is the way it should be -- you decide what constitutes a screenshot for you, enter appropriately, and vote as you wish.
Someone else may see things a bit differently, enter a different type of image, and vote differently.
Cool, eh?
And sometimes, a few of us might be tempted to change our minds and vote for something which falls out of our normal perception. That's pretty cool, as well...

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (toprob @ May 5 2008, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you decide what constitutes a screenshot for you, enter appropriately, and vote as you wish.

I have to confess here, for days I had no idea why people in here kept saying "let the voters decide". I thought they meant 'let the voters of this poll decide', which I couldn't understand why even needed to be said. After all, people were voting! It's only recently through having the facts explained free of emotive influences that I clicked that they meant 'let the voters OF THE CONTEST decide'. Once I got my head around that, it all fell into place.

Seems simple and those who understood what it meant all along, are probably thinking "why did it take him so long to get it?" but I'd be pretty sure I'm not the only person who misunderstood this point.

It's important though. For me, it changes everything. Each entrant can have their own style. One month might have a theme that is really hard to reproduce using raw screenshots, the next might be a subject that allows for shots like BK117's stunning oil rig shot. So its highly likely we'd see a combination of winners from both styles.

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Oh well, I guess the people who can use fancy language have won. Not the first time ..

[creator2003]

I dont think anyone has won anything here ..i dont really call this a good win ,i will still enter though no matter ill just step it up another level if thats now possible ,
Ive always like a challenge, and i will always push the limits with my entrys ,
Like Ian ive pretty much given all my prizes away over the times ive won ,i use to enter to step the level of shots up and just see if i could indeed win it ,now its more of to help keep the numbers there ..

This forum to me is a place i use to release my scenerys i dont want it to look to bad ,so i hope you put another rule with the others rulez ..
1.No jagged edges AA simply a must ..
what would have to happen if i only entered edited shots from now on would they get pulled or just not be in the voting poll ?
what poor bugger is going to make the judgment on someones shot to make sure its eligible and hasent breach the rule and cheated ,,its going be hard to police it
ah its going to be fun i cant wait ..
when this poll over with,, looks like 50% or more are in favor of this rule being in place still so ........let the games begin