ORBX Mesh

An area to discuss scenery addons for virtual NZ

Postby Adamski » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:42 pm

To add to my previous 2c worth ... I'm all in favour of rivalry ... even good natured pooh-poohing of other products. So many (mainly US based) boards respond with some over-censorious knee-jerk reaction if any ever dares to say any product is less than 100% fantastic.

I don't think anything here is in any way unpleasant ... just *confusing* for us non-techie-non-scenery-designer types. Maybe there could be a separate area for NZSI compatibilty topics? I mistook Ian's post to be just a general rant about "stock" NZSI mesh ... not frustration that it can't (easily) be taken to the next level. I get the drift, now ... so apologies if I've ruffled any feathers.

Though I'm no FS noob, I must admit that when it comes to scenery, I'm just a basic *consumer* and will either buy products that I like (for whatever daft reason) and be very grateful to the people that provide us with FREE (or almost free) stuff. If people are prepared to go that "extra mile" to allow us to have products from multiple providers co-exist, then that's all the better.

At the end of the day, simming is largely about the "suspension of belief" ... so it doesn't actually matter if it is real ... just that you *think* it is. Let's face it, how "real" are the aircraft we fly? The vast majority of us aren't pilots, so how would we know? laugh.gif

Hmmm that wasn't 2c worth ... more like $2!
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Postby toprob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:56 pm

Adamski wrote:
QUOTE (Adamski @ Jan 19 2012,9:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To add to my previous 2c worth ... I'm all in favour of rivalry ... even good natured pooh-poohing of other products. So many (mainly US based) boards respond with some over-censorious knee-jerk reaction if any ever dares to say any product is less than 100% fantastic.

I don't think anything here is in any way unpleasant ... just *confusing* for us non-techie-non-scenery-designer types. Maybe there could be a separate area for NZSI compatibilty topics? I mistook Ian's post to be just a general rant about "stock" NZSI mesh ... not frustration that it can't (easily) be taken to the next level. I get the drift, now ... so apologies if I've ruffled any feathers.

Though I'm no FS noob, I must admit that when it comes to scenery, I'm just a basic *consumer* and will either buy products that I like (for whatever daft reason) and be very grateful to the people that provide us with FREE (or almost free) stuff. If people are prepared to go that "extra mile" to allow us to have products from multiple providers co-exist, then that's all the better.

At the end of the day, simming is largely about the "suspension of belief" ... so it doesn't actually matter if it is real ... just that you *think* it is. Let's face it, how "real" are the aircraft we fly? The vast majority of us aren't pilots, so how would we know? :lol:

Hmmm that wasn't 2c worth ... more like $2!


You've pretty much summed up my feelings -- and given me an idea. We do have a 'designers' membership group, which we've never done anything with. It might be a good idea to have a designers-only sub-forum, where we can deal with all these issues without offending or confusing anyone. I'll talk to the other admin.
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Postby Adamski » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:37 pm

toprob wrote:
QUOTE (toprob @ Jan 19 2012,9:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You've pretty much summed up my feelings -- and given me an idea. We do have a 'designers' membership group, which we've never done anything with. It might be a good idea to have a designers-only sub-forum, where we can deal with all these issues without offending or confusing anyone. I'll talk to the other admin.

Good plan, Rob thumbup1.gif
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Postby Timmo » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:24 pm

Ian Warren wrote:
QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jan 19 2012,7:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SO WHOS DATA IS CORRECT AND WHOS IS NOT , you may want to check the last screen to GOOGLE EARTH , you will notice the housing stagger down the side of the point , default autogen is well least to say not as accurate as photo placed autogen .


As a GIS guy this question comes up a lot- both when doing your own GIS work (why doesn't this match with what I just did?!) and explaining concepts of accuracy to others that may use your work/data/.

The short answer to Ians question could be anything from 'none of them are "correct"' to 'all of them are "correct" to some degree'- The main point is that the definition of 'correct' isn't a black or white determination and it depends on a lot of factors (i.e. what you are using the data for) and what you are comparing it to.

The long answer (well, kind of a short long answer....there are books devoted to this stuff)- Every piece of data has error, doesn't matter if you are measuring ball bearings, peoples political views or features on the earth (ie. Geography and GIS). There is no way to completely remove error (to achieve that would result in an alternate parallel reality! eek!) and trying to minimise it is a balancing act between cost (i.e. price to acquire better data via more accurate instruments, storing and distributing that higher density/quality data etc etc) and end use (would you guys want a 2m country wide mesh? Yes!...but not if it cost $5000 each). In this example, what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'....

I'll mention a few sources of error for 2 of the items of data that Ian has mentioned: Aerial imagery and Mesh

Aerial imagery-An aerial photo is taken of the earth through a camera lens which is a source of error that's moderately easy to remove. It is taken from a plane which probably isn't flying quite straight meaning the lense doesn't point straight down resulting in distortion. The surface of the earth has high points and low points which are a source of error since 'scale' is dependent on distance between the lens and the object, a hill is closer to the lens therefore objects on it will appear bigger compared to those in a valley.
Most of this error is removed when an aerial photo is turned into a 'ortho-photo': the image is corrected for lense distortion, the parts of the image near the edges of each frame are removed and the terrain error is 'subtracted' using a terrain model. It's good, but it isn't perfect- Pixels are generally within ~ 5 x the GSD (i.e. 1m imagery will usually be accurate to around 5m) but in some areas, especially on steep terrain, you''ll get stretching and warping to make it fit.
Ortho-imagery is the type of aerial imagery we use in FSX because they can simply be placed on the mesh fairly accurately and without too much fuss.
When it comes to FSX, you also need to tell the sim what pixels on the image are 'water' which is carried out by the person who converts the imagery for FSX- This is, you guessed it, another source of error! Around steep coastal cliffs especially, it can be hard to decipher which areas are water and which are land (not to mention that areas of land vs sea water change with the movement of the tides). To make matters worse, trying to make aerial imagery look good on steep cliffs is like trying to trying to take a good school class photo suspended above from the roof of the gymnasium- The ratio of pixels to area gets worse the steeper you get meaning a 1 pixel error in the water mask can extend a long way UP a cliff face.


Mesh (and water)- Generally speaking, a 'mesh' is a continuous surface created from discrete data- It doesn't make sense to capture every square metre of the land surface of New Zealand so instead the country was captured as contours and points. The land not covered by a contour or a point (which is the vast majority!) we don't know about but can infer things about. For example, a piece of dirt sitting half way between a sea level and a contour at 20m will be around 10m high, give or take. When it comes time to create a continuous surface from that data, the computer makes those kinds of reckonings: I've got a 20m contour here, a 0m contour over there so I'll this area with values between 0-20m....obviously it's a bit more complex than that but that's the basics of it (again, books have been written about terrain interpolation in GIS!). When it comes to FSX, water polygons override the mesh meaning that even IF the mesh says 'hey this area is land above sea level' the water polygon will say 'No it aint!'- Given that most orthophotos contain more information than the water polygons about where water is and where it isn't, this can lead to some issues in FSX as the lower quality data takes precedence over the higher quality.


So, to sum all it up- It's not as simple as saying 'X lines up with Y but not Z, therefore Z is incorrect'- It's simply the fact that error on datasets line up in a bad way sometimes. No data is immune to it smile.gif
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Postby Adamski » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:00 pm

Thanks for your "short" (laugh.gif) answer, Timmo ... much appreciated. I'm not surprised there are books devoted to the subject. I think I'll stick to "flying"!!
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Postby Ian Warren » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:02 pm

Thanks Timmo for a lot of information on geo-builds and and X,Y,Z . one you do when studying a photo is the light and the time of day , this for example can place a building meters away from were it should actually be due to shadow and distortion even due to days humidity and temp . As you carry on saying the tides and course another distorting feature is the wind and from the altitude they fly to photo points of reference can also cause a differential in any photo then to add another to the problem is were and time off day on a coast line .

What many don't realize the height and what they do to get the photo in the days when they were on O2 in the slip stream so so fatigue and stress can also be added by photos like these are checked and double checked and if not right they go up again , todays photo planes make it a little easier and following all the above still have the same problem but they can achieve a result .

Once they have the photo , don,t they measure it to and already well measured coast line ?

Its then to place onto the mesh either you create or made from the data you access , now would the data be the same as another unless it is decided that what is there in plain view in incorrect , the way the heads out on this area are so well known but most people with open eyes and course people who study goggle , the others who fly the ridges find one mesh is right and one is wrong , the country,s topo cannot change that dramatic and less we have another sever quake .

Ball Bearings .. if i ask for MECO-SDK0.25 they had better be right diameter or that machine is going to be out off action for another three months till part arrives from Germany tongue.gif
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Postby Rotordude » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:06 pm

Ian Warren wrote:
QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jan 20 2012,9:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ball Bearings .. if i ask for MECO-SDK0.25 they had better be right diameter or that machine is going to be out off action for another three months till part arrives from Germany tongue.gif

Wots wrong with a Kamakovlokalike.25 tongue.gif
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Postby Ian Warren » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:19 pm

Rotordude wrote:
QUOTE (Rotordude @ Jan 20 2012,9:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wots wrong with a Kamakovlokalike.25 tongue.gif

Made in China stamped on the bottom of em .. don't roll that well rolleyes.gif
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Postby zkcav » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:54 pm

I've been following this and similar threads with interest since SI was released, and just want to chip in with my opinion.

There are a lot of valid points for and against, as with any new add on to a FSX install there is potential for issues and conflicts with other installed software. SI is no different. As Adrian points out let the punters decide what software works for them best. I still haven’t installed NZSI yet even though it’s paid for and downloaded. When NI is released I might install them both together and then spend my limited flying time fixing and tweaking to make everything work together.

In the mean time I am more than satisfied with Timmos VLC, with Rob’s Real NZ, Mike’s Payware (may well call it donationware for the price) and freeware (which is better than a lot of European payware I’ve wasted money on), and not forgetting Lawrie’s freeware stuff plus Gavin’s RNZAF offerings too (just to mention a few). There’s a lot of time and bandwidth tied up on my part and time and talent on the developer’s side.

If everything can work together seamlessly that would be utopia, but isn’t not going happen out of the box. In the meantime as a consumer my advice to the developers of scenery is do what gives you pleasure, if Orbx mesh works for you and compliments your work run with it, if VLC works better with your work use that. If it’s not a chore support both.

Even if it is your work you still have to enjoy what you do for a crust or you will get stale quickly if it’s a hobby the only person you need to satisfy is yourself is some else benefits even better.
Lastly again I can not express how much I appreciate how much the scenery developers have changed my homeland's default landscape. A big up to you all.
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Postby Ian Warren » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:36 pm

The stage NI gets released Christchurch photoreal would really be tidied up , this photo blends in so well with SI that makes it a no brainer .. the coast line will need its own little fix but mean time plenty to be done inland cool.gif
Last edited by Ian Warren on Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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