P3D 4 vs X-Plane 11

[sambo]

Ok, so SOMEONE had to raise this discussion so I figured it may as well be me!

A lot of virtual water has passed under the wings since my last post back in 2013 and there have been a lot of changes in the FS scene.

I never took the plunge back then but I've been keeping one eye on the goings on and the recent cancellation of Flight Sim World (which was disappointing) prompted me to take another look at what was out there.

I've spent the afternoon researching the various strengths of the latest iterations of both P3D and X-Plane and have come to the following conclusions:

Best for:
Scenery (incl addon packs): X-Plane
Grahics Performance: X-Plane
Handling Realism: X-Plane
VR Support: X-Plane

The only thing I can find which P3D does better is trees (via an addon) which X-Plane seems to be a bit backwards about as they're still stuck on 2D cardboard tree cutouts and there are no addons to improve this that I can find.

This is interesting, because with P3D 2/3 vs X-Plane 10 it was P3D all the way! Sadly P3D seems not to have progressed as fast as X-Plane and IMO they have lost their previous lead.

So that' my opinion, what do you guys think?

[jpreou]

I know *nothing* of X-Plane but my belief was / is that there is little if any quality NZ scenery for it.
What about hardware addons? (Saitek and the like)

[toprob]

I'm a bit wary of your claims, Sambo, as I'd rather see some examples of the 'features' you've quoted -- what are all these addon packs, for instance? It isn't immediately apparent which you actually own and use, either. I suspect that going online and searching 'prepar3d x-plane comparison' will give a very skewed view, which is one of the problems I've had with the X-plane community while I've been exploring whether or not to produce scenery for X-plane. I have mentioned this before, but I'm aware that I did offend some X-plane users. The problem really is that there's a part of the community which seems intent on improving X-plane's adoption by the general community by denigrating other sims. When I read your post a while ago, I did wonder if you were part of this group, and if you hadn't contributed to NZFF previously, I might have taken you for a Russian twitter-bot:) Getting back to the point -- searching for any comparison would return a lot from that particular group which see the flightsim market as a personal battleground.

I own Prepar3d (3 & 4) and X-plane 11, as well as Aerofly FS2, flightsim World, and FSX. I only tend to load X-plane to test my new scenery as I build it for Prepar3d, and convert for X-plane. I have never been greatly impressed by X-plane, though, but this could have something to do with Jeff's point -- NZ is not well-served by X-plane.

I may get more exciting about X-plane once I start to see a 'real' New Zealand in it, as least a couple of really nice airports. As a developer, I really want to take a step towards putting NZ on the X-plane map, but it is more of an ordeal than anything else at the moment. This isn't really helped by the X-plane community, some of them tend to go out of their way to convince me that they don't want me there.

I'd love to see you expand on your original post, though, there's always room for some more support here on NZFF.

[Radar88]

Really surprised by the topic comments

Particularly Rob's comments as a Developer given his previous comments from the NZ Scenery project posting New Zealand and X-Plane

The P3D 4 vs X-Plane 11 debate discussion has been raise on other flight sim forums a simple search on the Internet can bring many and varied differing opinions.

Perhaps a look at the wikipedia Hisory of Flight Simulation beginning with Microsoft Flight Simulator 3.0 in 1988. Microsoft Flight Simulator reached commercial maturity with version 3.1, and went on to encompass the use of 3D graphics and graphic hardware acceleration.

Microsoft continued to produce newer versions of the flight simulation software, adding features, such as new aircraft types and augmented scenery. The 2000 and 2002 versions were available in "Standard" and "Professional" editions, where the latter included more aircraft, tools and scenery options. The 2004 release (version 9) marked the celebration of one hundred years of powered flight and had only one edition. Flight Simulator X, released in 2006 by ACES Game Studio a divsion of Microsoft, returned to dual versions with a "Standard" and a "Deluxe" edition.

Closure of the ACES Game Studio
On January 22, 2009, it was reported that the development team was heavily affected by Microsoft's ongoing job cuts, with indications that the entire Microsoft Flight Simulator team had been laid off. Microsoft confirmed the closure of the ACES studio on January 26, 2009, in a post on the official FSInsider Web site. stating "This difficult decision was made to align Microsoft's resources with our strategic priorities. Microsoft Flight Simulator X will remain available at retail stores and Web retailers, the Flight Sim community will continue to learn from and encourage one another, and we remain committed to the Flight Simulator franchise for the long term."

According to former ACES employee Phil Taylor, the shutdown was not due to sales performance of FSX, but due to management issues and delays in project delivery, combined with increased demand for staff. Speculation in the mainstream and gaming media was that future versions could be released as an Internet-based version, or on Microsoft's Xbox platform.

In October 2009, two (out of over 50) former members of the Aces Studio, formed a new game studio called the Cascade Game Foundry for the development of simulation games.

P3D - Lockheed Martin Prepar3D Microsoft ESP (Enterprise Simulation Platform) For Professional Training Simulation purposes Only license


In 2009 Lockheed Martin announced that they had negotiated with Microsoft to purchase the intellectual property (including source code) for the Microsoft ESP (Enterprise Simulation Platform) product. Microsoft ESP is the commercial-use version of "Flight Simulator X SP2". On May 17, 2010, Lockheed announced that the new product based upon the ESP source code would be called Lockheed Martin Prepar3D. Lockheed hired members of the original ACES Studio team to continue development of the product. Version 1.1 was released in April 2011, with a retail license cost of US$499. A developer license is also available for a monthly fee of US$9.95. In March 2012, along with the release of version 1.3, the pricing strategy was revised. The Professional edition is now available for US$199, with an Academic License available for US$59.95.

After releasing Version 2 in 2013 and Version 3 in 2015, the team released 64-bit Version 4 in May 2017.

Dovetail Games Microsoft ESP (Enterprise Simulation Platform) For Gaming and Entertainment purposes Only license

On July 9, 2014, Dovetail Games announced that Microsoft had granted them rights to develop the next Flight Simulator in the series. Dovetail Games also announced the release of Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition on Steam for late 2014, named Microsoft Flight Simulator X: Steam Edition. Microsoft Flight Simulator X: Steam Edition was released on 18 December 2014, and is a re-release of the FSX Gold Edition, which includes the Deluxe and Acceleration packs and both Service Packs. It includes "all standard Steam functionality", and replaces the GameSpy multiplayer system with Steam's multiplayer system.

Unfortunately, on April 23, 2018, Dovetail announced end of development for Flight Sim World and effective May 24th 2018 will be the of end of sales.

Both Lockheed Martin Prepar3D and Dovetail Games Flight Sim World are derivatives of the Flight Simulator X Source programming code from ACES Game Studio who developed the Microsoft ESP (Enterprise Simulation Platform)

X Plane Laminar Research launched 1993

Prepar3D v1.1 a 32bit derivative of FSX launched April 2011

X Plane 11 64bit Laminar Research launched May 2017

Flight Sim World 64bit derivative of FSX launched May 2017

Prepar3D v 4 64bit derivative of FSX launched June 2017

You need to remember that the Development of X Plane has been around in development for over 20 years by Laminar Research. X Plane 11 in May 2017 was complete 64 bit rebuild from the ground up of the original 32 bit X Plane versions as compared with the more recent Lockheed Martin Prepar3D which has only been 7 years in development based on the Microsoft ESP (Enterprise Simulation Platform) FSX derivative.


Both are different Flight Simulation Engine Platforms each has their own advantages and disadvantages which could either be good or bad based on ones own personal perferences.

I know *nothing* of X-Plane but my belief was / is that there is little if any quality NZ scenery for it.
What about hardware addons? (Saitek and the like)

I believe to say that" that there is little if any quality NZ scenery for X Plane is complete rubbish when you read all the posting content from the other NZFF thread posting for New Zealand and X-Plane kiwi_the_iwik (Aaron) has developed some really good quality NZ scenery for X Plane when combined with some of Lyndiman mesh/orthoimagery Lyndiman’s New Zealand Ortho Photography Set

X Plane 11 User Interface for binding hardware addons Saitek Controllers perhaps some research on youtube Configuring Joysticks in X Plane 11

I'd rather see some examples of the 'features' you've quoted

Scenery Packages using Open SceneryX library

[MichaelBasler]

The problem really is that there's a part of the community which seems intent on improving X-plane's adoption by the general community by denigrating other sims. When I read your post a while ago, I did wonder if you were part of this group, and if you hadn't contributed to NZFF previously, I might have taken you for a Russian twitter-bot:)

I may get more exciting about X-plane once I start to see a 'real' New Zealand in it, as least a couple of really nice airports.

I'd love to see you expand on your original post, though, there's always room for some more support here on NZFF.

Thanks Robin, for the clear statement. I own all of the present civilian sims (Prepar3d4, XP11, AeroflyFS2, FSW) as well. They all have their pros and cons. I think I logged enough hours in all of them at least to judge them. As a result, I still use Prepar3d4 for my daily flying, notably in NZ where I own all of the ORBX and Godzone offers.

When I posed a similar question - which actually was quite critical against Prepar3d4 - in the ORBX forum, moderator in chief Nick finally deleted the thread (eben though it included remarks by JV himself) as they don't allow sim wars (any longer, I should add, as this paragraph was added only recently, after they started to hail X-Plane).

As I said, they all have their pros and cons - day/night lighting, available addons, blurries, performance, weather, AI, scenery system, maintainability (ascibe as you like). However, the one single aspect making me dislike X-Plane are the X-Plane evangelists continually trying to draw others to "their" sim.

Kind regards, Michael

[jpreou]

I'd be happy to be proven wrong on my assumptions and I did qualify by stating "I know nothing...", but I have such an investment in P3D both hardware and software and time that to do same again for another sim, *any* other sim is asking a bit too much financially and time wise. Given I want an NZ-only sim, until XP comes 'out of the box' (i.e. product + freeware) with a decent rendition comparable to what I have now, why would I even bother? Its like 'wanting' a new car when you have a perfectly good one and no reason to change; you're probably not going to. I'm certainly not going to spend time and money until convinced and to be blunt, I have no desire to even check at this point.
I'm not slating XP at all; it certainly looks ok, presumably 'feels' ok; but that is the way I see it; there is no 'WOW, this is so much better' that I am seeing to prompt me to get off my fat ass and do anything about it.
XP may have its merits, and certainly has its following, but right now I personally see no compelling reason to change if one is of limited means and already heavily invested in something else (likely FSX/P3D since there isn't a whole lot for AFS2 right now).
As always, this is just my opinion. If it offends, well sorry, not my problem; it is just a game; go ahead and slate P3D or anything else that interests me; as long as it doesn't get personal we'll still be friends!
Let the war begin.

[toprob]

I did think long and hard about my post, as I know I have an issue with a specific part of the community, but that doesn't really affect how much I like or support X-plane. Initially there were dozens of views of Sambo's post without any replies, and I did think that Ian would be very annoyed with us for letting that happen:) But since I have my quirky views, and different requirements for a sim -- mainly how to develop for it, how the community accepts developers, and whether it would be profitable -- I left it in the hope that someone else would break the ice. Cheers, Jeff.

Radar, your reply was exactly the 'challenge accepted' post I wanted. In reality it was only the 'vs' aspect of the topic title which I had to deal with, simply because I'm aware of how the general community reacts to that -- it is too polarizing for a continued, sensible debate.

I knew it would be a challenge to develop for other sims, and X-plane has been particularly frustrating, partly because it is such a great base to build on. The tools I've tried give my real issues with performance, I wasn't used to out-of-memory errors trying to build a 'light' scenery, trying to reproduce the degree of detail I put into a small MSFS scenery. Getting different scenery aspects to work together is tricky, although I suspect this is more my lack of experience.

I'm particularly interested in New Zealander's impressions of X-plane, but of course the nature of NZFF now doesn't really work towards that. I'm not sure how we should judge the interest in X-plane, or any 'other' sim, with so few visitors here now. Maybe if 1 out of 5 or 10 screenshots were X-plane, then it might become clearer...

A lot of the posts we do get here are impressions -- including screenshots -- of newly acquired addons, mainly aircraft or course, but it is very rare to see a 'review' of an X-plane addon.

The last thing I want to do is to shut down discussion on X-plane, quite the opposite.

[sambo]

Hi Guys,

Good discussion so far!

To answer some questions / clarify my original assertions:

No, I am not an X-Plane fanboi sewing propaganda throughout the interwebs, incognito

Regarding my evaluation of the 4 areas of feature comparison:

Scenery (incl addon packs): X-Plane
- I made this call after watching a dozen or so comparison videos and some direct comparison images. Many reviewers were comparing P3D with Orbx scenery to X-Plane native and the consensus was the X-Plane was marginally ahead. My own observations agree with this.
- As for addon, highly detailed NZ scenery, this was not something I was specifically evaluating; only the general quality of global scenery.

Grahics Performance: X-Plane
- From what I have seen online, X-Plane seems to run more efficiently & make better use of hardware (especially CPU) than P3D

Handling Realism: X-Plane
- General consensus from reviewers during direct P3D/XP comparisons was that X-Plane's physics / handling realism was superior and generally 'felt' more like real world flying to real world pilots. I can't comment, but I took these assessments at face value.

VR Support: X-Plane
- While visually there doesn't seem to be much difference in VR modes between P3D & XP, the general 'in VR' menu / options / sim operation functionality of X-Plane seem to be superior.

As has been pointed out; some flyers have a lot of money invested in a particular platform and see no compelling reason to spend it all again on a different platform for minimal gain, which is completely understandable. I however am starting from zero so I have no vested interests either way.

My overall view is that while last time I asked this question X-Plane was somewhat behind P3D, but since then XP appears to have caught up and surpassed P3D in many areas and the momentum seems likely continue into the future. I especially like the fact that XP has been recently rebuilt, allowing it to make better use of modern hardware and methods etc. Something always in the back of my mind is my perception that P3D is just FSX will more bits 'tacked on', which often makes of inefficiencies; something very important given the high hardware demands of flight sims.

As for why the massive computing power of GPUs isn't more heavily utilised, I don't know, but that's perhaps a discussion for a different thread.

[jpreou]

Certainly if starting from zero, as you are, then a proper evaluation of both is required.
P3D does though, require a good GPU to perform, so one can only assume it does indeed make significant use of it (in P3Dv4 at least) (reference your final comment).
If I were 'starting again' I would check out all sims... I'm doing very little simming right now; haven't flown in ages and that is likely due to time, not a "full" NZ in P3Dv4 and the fact I am no longer flying IRL so the 'practice flight' element is now also gone.
If / when I do get back in then I *may* consider VR (recent experiment aside, which regular readers know about) - in the case of VR, of course, all that add-on hardware by and large becomes redundant. Dunno, for me that is a few years into the future and they are a *lot* of other things that will command my time, attention and finances before flight sim.
Meanwhile, I watch with interest and insights such as yours are a useful datapoint. Keep it up!
Meanwhile, for those running XP with NZ scenery; some high quality screenies over coming months with "XP" noted in the title / subject would be useful (in the title / subject / header so we can easily identify them in the list and thus not simply gloss over them).
Have a great day all (and a wet one if you are in ChCh today)

[toprob]

Co-incidentally, just watched this video on Youtube -- Aaron's brilliant Auckland scenery in X-plane. I do think of X-plane as in a similar position to the early FS versions as far as NZ is concerned -- it took some major leaps from the likes of Christian Stock, and later Tim Barnes to give it a workable 'base', so I'd love to see a NZ base of some sort one day. I'm not talking about "orthoscenery" (the x-plane word for photoscenery:), which I do enjoy, as many of you might know, but something broader, and more detail-oriented. Lyndiman's NZ is a treasure, but until we get some proper NZ vegetation, airports, cities etc it will remain a stand-alone occasional fun visit for me.

I'd love to see an Orbx NZ region in X-plane... who said that?

This is a tricky area, I know, I seem to be continually swearing about Orbx, but what they do is truly marvelous, I just get annoyed with having to shoehorn earlier stuff into it. On the other hand, starting from scratch with FTX NZ for X-plane would be an entirely different thing... It won't happen, because it is a chicken and egg situation as far as Orbx are concerned, there is no guarantee that the market will turn up in droves. Well, same for every developer, really.

[Charl]

I do think of X-plane as in a similar position to the early FS versions

I look at that video and feel as though I was transported back 20 years.
Coming off Aerofly FS2 the whole thing can charitably be described as "representative scenery".
Those trees!

Of course, FS2 doesn't have ANYthing in NZ but when it happens, it will be something from which you can Never Go Back.
That takes care of the VFR and casual flyers.

Then there will be a terrible choice for the study level simmers: XP11 or P3D?
Which one will most likely measure up to FS2?
Probably neither, which in my peculiar case would require a reinstall of heavy metal for FS2004.

But XPlane has a future which the crappy old coding in P3D cannot match.

[MichaelBasler]

But XPlane has a future which the crappy old coding in P3D cannot match.

You may or may not know that the coding of X-Plane is as crappy old as that of MSFS/P3D. If not, I would invite you to investigate the history of both of them.

An yes, the code of XP has been heavily reworked during the last years, but this applies to P3D as well.

Kind regards, Michael

[sambo]

Just an update from my recent research, there is some pretty decent NZ scenery available:
30m Mesh:
http://www.alpilotx.net/downloads/x-pla ... cenery-v4/
Detailed Overlay:
http://www.alpilotx.net/downloads/x-pla ... aland-pro/
Orthoscenery (as toprob mentioned):
https://lyndiman.com/lyndimans-new-zeal ... raphy-set/
Various other scenery listed on x-plane.org:
https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/s ... e&nodes=80

I also found some better trees (although they are still 'cardboard cutout' in shape:
OSM based tree type placement:
http://simheaven.com/simdownloads/forests/
HD Tree Textures:
https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f ... d-forests/

The best part of all this is that these are all free, although some are 'donationware' which seems very fair.

Also, considering that the general equivalent comparison has been P3D WITH ORBX vs XP STOCK scenery, I'm expecting XP + the scenery addons above to be a step up again from P3D+ORBX.

[Radar88]

For those that are interested in seeing the above mentioned NZ scenery for XP 11.

Milosanx has a Channel on Youtube, He's an Australian who has recently done several lengthy live stream flights in XP 11 featuring New Zealand.

In particular he uses the Lyndiman Orthoscenery and Alpilotx.net NZ scenery which are certainly show cased and can be seen in all it's glorious splendor in the following clips.

[XP11] -Lyndiman New Zealand Ortho4xp -Damn it's beautiful -VR

[XP11] New Zealand Ortho4xp -FSeconomy -VR -NZQN-NZLX and back

[XP11] New Zealand Ortho4xp -739 ULTIMATE -NZQN-NZWM

[XP11] -Vskylabs DC-3 -Lyndiman NZ Ortho4xp -FSeconomy -NZNV-NZQN-NZCH

[XP11] -DC3 -New Zealand Ortho4xp -Queenstown-Wanaka-Glentanner-Mount Cook -VR

[XP11] -Vskylabs DC-3 -New Zealand Ortho4xp -FSeconomy -Noth Island Hop

[XP11] NZ ortho -739 Ultimate -NZQN-NZAA -VR

[XP11] Vskylabs DC-3 -NZ Ortho -FSEconomy

While I'm a New Zealander with real world flying experience throughout NZ, some of the NZ localise Airport and City Scenery is less than desirable to match the real world, this is likely due to either the lack of NZ based Scenery Developers or just One or Two Developers willing to take on a form of project ownership and develop NZ based Scenery for XP 11, There seems to be still an outdated attitude amongst the NZ FS community that X-plane is in a similar position to the early Microsoft FS versions as far as NZ is concerned. Or perhaps it's an attitude of lets be a Kiwi and just sit on the fence and wait and see what Orbx are going to do now that they are starting to develop for X Plane.

I recall paying for Christian Stock Mesh Scenery well over 10 years ago and then 8- 9 years ago paying for all the FTX Orbx Australia Regions which was then later merged into one FTX Australia this was followed by FTX North America also purchased before FTX Orbx started to develop the Orbx FTX NZ South scenery that was then followed by Orbx NZ North scenery.

While I was waiting for the FTX Orbx team to develop their FTX NZ South and North sceneries. Tim Barnes developed and released Vector Land Class NZ as one of NZ's first merging payware scenery projects then with interested shortly afterwards I discovered a small limited number RealNZ Godzone sceneries also purchased. While still waiting of Orbx to develop and release FTX NZ South and North.

Now I'm no Developer and have no FS developer skills but at the moment it appears that for XP 11. The NZ scenery is mainly either by Freeware or by Donation via X Plane.org by anyone wanting to give it a go and try developing something for themselves, Thus I can only conclude that local NZ FS Developers seem to be unwilling to take on and develop payware scenery for X Plane, perhaps for financial reasons it's not viable for them. So it seems to be, a case of being in the X Plane Scenery development to hard basket for the time being from those with New Zealand FS Scenery Developer skills.

[sambo]

Wow Radar88, that does look pretty impressive!

[chopper_nut]

I've been using FSX for years but I just recently made the switch to XP11.... I'll never go back. XP represents flight so much better. I don't use it but the VR support is there. For light aircraft and helicopters, it's light years ahead of any other sim. As for NZ scenery, it is a little lacking but there are a number of us working on projects that are filling some holes. The orthographic scenery goes a long way to making it look realistic. XP11 is the sim of the future... and it's constantly being worked on. Just my opinion.

[jpreou]

I've been using FSX for years but I just recently made the switch to XP11.... I'll never go back. XP represents flight so much better. I don't use it but the VR support is there. For light aircraft and helicopters, it's light years ahead of any other sim. As for NZ scenery, it is a little lacking but there are a number of us working on projects that are filling some holes. The orthographic scenery goes a long way to making it look realistic. XP11 is the sim of the future... and it's constantly being worked on. Just my opinion.

When you said you went from FSX to XP11 is that exactly what you meant? ...because there is a world of difference now between FSX and P3Dv4.2 as well, and comparing P3D4.x and XP11 would surely be a better 'available now' comparison than a comparison with a years old legacy product (FSX)?

It is interesting to see what is in XP11 but with such an investment already, as mentioned before, I am unlikely to make the switch (admittedly, I *almost* hit the buy button on XP11 in Steam yesterday, but 'er indoors would have a hard word about me spending even more money when I already have a sim I don't fly!). Perhaps I'll add it to my 'wish list' and see if Steam 'sale' it at some point in future.

[jpreou]

Ha!
I just went and added XP11 to my wishlist in Steam; just in case it comes up on a discount (it would have to be a 'good' discount; base price is NZ$80 and I don't even have that right now).
Then I click "All available DLC content" ---> NZ$ 1,202.79 ouch!
No different, of course, probably less, than I have spent in FSX / P3D but then, I've already spent that and bit by bit over many years; scary when you see it as a single number...!

[chopper_nut]

I've had FSX since it came out and then went to SE when that came out. I've used that up until nine months ago when I got a new computer and switched to XP11. Never had P3d... I wanted to change to XP because of the flight models. I mostly fly smaller stuff so the Blade Element Theory is much more important for me. As I see it now, there are two things that XP lacks and that is weather and traffic although there are (payware) add ons to manage both.

[jpreou]

Never had P3d... I wanted to change to XP because of the flight models. I mostly fly smaller stuff so the Blade Element Theory is much more important for me.

So scale of 1 to 10, 1= bad, comparison between FSX and XP11 for;
light aircraft = ?
light helicopters = ?

...go!