Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Splitpin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:07 pm

Charl, this is exactly why I wanted to start a little sub-thread ...thanks for sharing the shot ....sorry about your coffee.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby chopper_nut » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:23 am

Radar88 wrote:
chopper_nut wrote:
Is there a video of said event?


Looks like the 2001 Airshow was fairly tame by comparison to the 2008 event Auster , RNZAF Sioux and RNZAF Iroquois Flypast at Dairy Flat Airfield Air Show held on March 24, 2001

It may have been this Iroquois driver from a year earlier at the Classic Fighters 2007 airshow held at Omaka Aerodrome RNZAF Iroquois, Harvard, CT4 and Seasprite displays


I was there for that CF display. Good job once again by the 3 sqn guys. As for the photo... Not sure, tail looks a long way off the deck there and it's hard to tell how far away it is. Don't forget that in the military world, you have to be authorised by the sqn CO and (if it's anything like the RAF, the base commander) before going off and displaying for the public. If the display was in fact dangerous then he was going off plan and would've been bollocked by people with more bars than he. Would I fly at the crowd and do a quick stop? Not sure to be honest, possibly if I knew the aircraft well. I certainly would include something similar if I was displaying a 500 or a Robbie. You only need to get up to about 60kts before the thing looks like it's moving really fast.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Charl » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:22 pm

Not sure of the point you are making, chopper_nut.
Read my post, this is what happened:
Charl wrote:So this hotdog flew full-tilt nose down, straight at the spectator fence and at the last moment heaved back to show us how quickly he could stop and not give us all a very close haircut.
He buried the tailskid in so doing (it was down an embankment) but luckily still had enough presence of mind left to heave on the collective before the thing nosed over onto us.

My photo was taken while he still had forward momentum, and was mushing down.

If you are condoning this, then I'd be keen to know on what basis...
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Radar88 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:39 pm

Charl wrote:Not sure of the point you are making, chopper_nut.
Read my post, this is what happened:
Charl wrote:So this hotdog flew full-tilt nose down, straight at the spectator fence and at the last moment heaved back to show us how quickly he could stop and not give us all a very close haircut.
He buried the tailskid in so doing (it was down an embankment) but luckily still had enough presence of mind left to heave on the collective before the thing nosed over onto us.

My photo was taken while he still had forward momentum, and was mushing down.

If you are condoning this, then I'd be keen to know on what basis...


Interesting that the photo sees that the RNZAF Iroquois side doors were closed and not open as in for showing off like a hot shot driver in a public display routine, so at a guess it's a likely scenario of either a planned or unplanned Autorotation demo while leaving it a bit late if he's managed to dig in the tail rotor protection skid into the grass with such a high angle of attack flare out.

That's if it looked something like in these videos

UH-1 Emergency Procedures - Touch Down Autorotation

CAL FIRE Super Huey Helicopter Emergency Procedures - Autorotation

Helicopter Lessons In 10 Minutes or Less, Autorotations (The Basics)

Warbirds Over Wanaka 2012 - RNZAF Iroquois Demonstration

Friday Flashback 13 - Bell UH-1H Iroquois (Huey) Chopper


Now getting back to the topic here's some videos of that poor little Sioux 3706 rebuilt again RNZAF style.

RNZAF Bell-47 Sioux helicopter

Sioux Helicopter ride with 3 Squadron of the Air Force - Live Inspired Journey

Practice Forced Landing Sioux Helicopter

3 Sqn 19 ship startup for flyover RNZAF Base Ohakea. 14 Iroquois and 5 Sioux helicopters

3 Sqn 19 ship Flypast over RNZAF Base Ohakea. 14 Iroquois and 5 Sioux helicopters

3 Squadron Manawatu Flyover 18 Dec 08

RNZAF One News - Helicopters Over Manawatu Dec 2008

TV3 news covers the final 3 Sqn.19 ship flight over Ohakea and the Manawatu. 14 Iroquois and 5 Sioux helicopters

RNZAF UH1 overfly NZPM

RNZAF Helicopter Flypast over Feilding Dec 18th 2008
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby chopper_nut » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:11 am

Charl wrote:Not sure of the point you are making, chopper_nut.
Read my post, this is what happened:
Charl wrote:So this hotdog flew full-tilt nose down, straight at the spectator fence and at the last moment heaved back to show us how quickly he could stop and not give us all a very close haircut.
He buried the tailskid in so doing (it was down an embankment) but luckily still had enough presence of mind left to heave on the collective before the thing nosed over onto us.

My photo was taken while he still had forward momentum, and was mushing down.

If you are condoning this, then I'd be keen to know on what basis...


You haven't given me anything to condone or condemn it yet. How fast was he going toward the crowd? how far away when he stopped? did the stinger touch the ground or did it hit hard and bounce the machine forward onto the ground? (the stinger on Bell mediums is designed for exactly that) You're calling out a professional aviator and if it were me, I'd be very keen to know what you thought was wrong and what your basis for those claims are. Low level Tiger Moth aerobatics at airshows in NZ scare me sometimes but I also know that the pilots are professionals and that I don't know enough about the aircraft or the maneuvers to call the pilot a hotdog.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Radar88 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:03 pm

Something was bugging me about the Photo not being quiet right looking, with what is seen as a grainy line coming off on an angle forward of the Right Landing Skid, Looking as if the Iroquois was being pulled forward and down so went and did a little more searching around.

Charl wrote:Erm, Mr. Splitpin, resizing is one thing, but the pictures on the forum are meant to be posted landscape mode...
chopper_nut wrote:Is there a video of said event?
No we were transfixed, and genuinely terrified.
But out there is a retired Iroquois driver and I'll bet he's reading this.
C'mon feller, tell us a little about the experience from the other side of the fence <_<

EDIT:
I took this as a challenge and trawled my photodump folder.
Everyone should have one, it's like the Pirate sites in terms of Ultimate Resource.
I found this, taken a moment before fleeing.
It's a little further back in time than I recalled: 2008.

Image

Time flies; looking at it now, he was being more of an asshole than I thought.


Have to admit that despite the inferences previously made. That it's a very dangerous yet impressive photo.

Here's a couple of links found in my search that might help explain they are some higher quality photos of the same dramatic scene only from a slightly different angle of being side on showing the Tail Stinger rotor protection skid just inches off the ground.

RNZAF NZ3812 Bell UH-1H Iroquois North Shore Aerodrome - NZNE Mar 29, 2008 Photo 1

RNZAF NZ3812 Bell UH-1H Iroquois North Shore Aerodrome - NZNE Mar 29, 2008 Photo 2

Here's why it's a dangerous situation and what is not clearly evident from Charl's photo when comparing with the other higher quality photo, it looks like a genuine emergency maneuver situation with evasive action is being taken by the Iroquois Pilot.

If you look closely at the Photo their is what appears to be Yellow Aircraft tie down ropes caught on the Rear and Front of the Landing Skids.

One loose Aircraft Tie down Peg with a Yellow rope is dangling off the Left Rear Landing Skid (seen in Charl's Photo dark Peg being dragged on the ground just beneath the White Tire in the distant background) while another one is seen dangling off and somewhat taut rope on the front Right Landing Skid in Charl's Photo. I must admit when I first spotted Charl's Photo it did look a bit grainy odd to make out. The other higher quality photo sheds more light on the incident.

It's looking more like a case of dangerous Foreign Object Debris (FOD) from the White Tires that are commonly used to contain Aircraft tie down ropes and Rotor wash may have caused them to become loose during the day.

I think you can rest easy knowing that it was a genuine emergency maneuver situation and not a case of this inference.

Charl wrote:
Charl wrote:So this hotdog flew full-tilt nose down, straight at the spectator fence and at the last moment heaved back to show us how quickly he could stop and not give us all a very close haircut.
He buried the tailskid in so doing (it was down an embankment) but luckily still had enough presence of mind left to heave on the collective before the thing nosed over onto us.

My photo was taken while he still had forward momentum, and was mushing down.

If you are condoning this, then I'd be keen to know on what basis...
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby chopper_nut » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:38 pm

Good find there. yeah so it appears that he got tangled up. Although there isn't a video, there doesn't appear to be much in the way of danger of an actual tail rotor strike. The stinger on the 204 / 205 series is often used as it is on the 222 and 430. In fact, find me a 222 that has paint left on the stinger :lol: He definitely could've been pulled out of the sky there so it looks to be a case of good luck and good piloting leading to a good outcome.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby deaneb » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:11 pm

Radar88 wrote:
If you look closely at the Photo their is what appears to be Yellow Aircraft tie down ropes caught on the Rear and Front of the Landing Skids.


If you look closer you can see something attached to the front RH skid end. The rope then looks to be attached or threaded through one of the eyelets on the LH skid, so more purposeful than accidental. I thought maybe to initiate smoke, but they are usually further back so its a little baffling. I don't think a rope on the ground would make its way around the skids in that way, its more likely to be blown outward and sucked back around into the rotor.
The pitch up is nothing unusual. The tails skid is at least a foot off the deck. I have seen plenty of stops like this and even greater pitch ups in doing so.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Radar88 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:35 pm

It looks like the event was the Helicopter Open Champs held at North Shore Aerodrome in March 2008 with Open Helicopter Landing competitions.

Found this link to what alludes to the incident over on The Wings Over New Zealand Aviation Forum Helicopter Champs 2008 there's not much detail to indicate what actually happened, although it has another Photobucket image zoomed in on the Stinger that sees dusty gravel spraying behind when it hits the ground.

Looks like there may have possibly been another video of the event that existed at the time, but the links to it, have long gone. Such a pity.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby chopper_nut » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:33 am

Looking at those photos, he's definitely towing something although it doesn't appear to be attached to anything. There was mention of some blade damage although not exactly what. Those tail rotors can pick up stones and the like and be fine, in fact, they pick up stuff when you're not doing quick stops over gravel.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Charl » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:33 am

Great bit of sleuthing there, Radar!
Marty, I am sorry to highjack your thread but I dug a bit more and found some more pics of the event.
The ropes were attached as part of a hover test: you were meant to lift off, fly to a designated target, and hang your ropes so they just touched the ground inside the circle.
Some lucky official got to remove them when done, and attach to the next contestant.

Image

Google Streetview helped me remember exactly where we stood on the day, at the fence in Postman’s Road:

Image

I ghosted in my photo, and scaled it using the trees and hangars in the background.

Image

Using the Streetview locator, I could pin from where the photo was taken, and the position of the aircraft - all drawn to scale.

Image

This ties in well with the Proboards pics, placed by looking at the hangar and clubhouse behind.
I had earlier stood there for some shots, too.

Image

It’s a real shame the videos were taken down, but noteworthy is the fact that at that point there is forward motion with enough energy to plow up the taxiway with the skid.
So, how close? Turning to Google Earth’s ruler: about 25m

Image

He never did get to hang his ropes in the hover. As mentioned, he did well to get up and out of there.
As did the guy standing at the gate. Just before he bolted, I seem to recall him looking at the approaching threshing machine trailing a cloud of gravel and dust, and shouting: “He’s F*cking Mad!”

This thread is perhaps a good example of the difficulties facing an Air Accident Investigation, in reconstructing the events around a crash site.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Radar88 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:03 am

Excellent work Charl,

It's been great learning all about it.

One of those oh Bugger and oh :swear: moment for them.

Maybe it was a bit late in the day for them, after everyone was finishing up for the day.

For those that are interested the following link might explain what the NZ Open Heli Champs is all about from the KiwiFlyer issue 10 April/May 2010
An Article about the 6th Annual NZ Open Heli Champs that was held 2 years later at Whitianga Airfield
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Charl » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:39 am

Great link!
There's a paragraph in there which caught my eye, and would explain much:
Here’s a tip for any of you thinking about competing next year - you lose more points in time penalties than anything else


Our Iroqois was still in competition, doing the ropes test thing.
Perhaps he'd figured out that time was more important than accuracy, and put the boot in!
That would explain the heat of the engagement.

It's been a fascinating discussion, thanks for your inputs, Radar
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Radar88 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:43 pm

Your welcome, it's a great outcome.

Just another interesting little side note.

re your fantastic work on the Google Street view capture shots with the top down Google Earth’s illustration.

Just wanted to point out, that seen at the bottom edge of the above Google Earth’s aerial views is an orangey roof rural property opposite and next to Google's label Postman’s Road. Is the beige colour Hanger building structure and apron area. That is now the Barrier Air, North Shore NZNE Base Hanger and Terminal.

I also grabbed a Google Street view capture taken in 2012 of the beige colour Terminal building end of the structure for Aharon's recent question Posting What New Zealand Airport Is That Please? if anyone is interested.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby deaneb » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:41 pm

Nice work - amazing what can be found by a little googling. Hitting the gravel with the skid is cause for concern. I believe the helo would be grounded after that until the skid, support structure and tail rotor was inspected for damage, by engineers.
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Re: Poor little Sioux ...chopper bashing RNZAF style

Postby Splitpin » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:24 pm

Charl ..."Marty, I am sorry to highjack your thread" theres no way I would consider this a highjack, in fact the opposite, what a great conversation from all of you.
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