Mesh, Afcads And Flattens

An area to discuss scenery addons for virtual NZ

Postby ardypilot » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:21 pm

My Ardmore looks like this:
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
The taxiways and runways are in tenches beneath the rest of the surrounding ground level.

I have noticed this at a few other airports around the world too, including "Hood" in Texas. Is it just me with my 'terrain_vertex_level=21' or are other people getting this too.

NZAR never used to look like this, does anyone know how to fix it?

P.S. My Picton airport is weird too: http://z11.invisionfree.com/nzff/index. ... wtopic=966
Intel Core i5-2400|8GB RAM|ATI Radeon HD 5750 (1GB)|1TB Seagate Barracuda|Windows 7 64 Bit|FSX Gold Edition|24" AOC Widescreen
User avatar
ardypilot
NZFF Pro
 
Topic author
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:01 am
Posts: 6779
Location: Auckland

Postby Naki » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:43 pm

Hi Trolly

Also have the same problem - I believe this is a result of using the 20m mesh - airports remain at their orginal level whilst all the area around is at the more accurate 20m mesh level . Sorry don't know of a fix - would also like to know as well - I am looking forward to Robins Ardmore secnery for a permanent fix!

Cheers

Naki
User avatar
Naki
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 6466
Location: Tauranga

Postby Jenks » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:52 pm

This is exactly what has happened since I reinstalled everything as well :angry:

I had it all looking good and running sweetly before my hard drive expired. Now that I have reinstalled from scratch I have a whole heap of airfields doing this. Very frustrating as I have set it up exactly as I had it before - well as far as I can remember.

I have the 20m mesh and the topo/landclass installed. My Ardmore looks just like yours now Trolly. Plus I have a fair few 'split-level' airfields where I can be taxiing out for takeoff and then crash into the runway as it is sitting about 10 feet off the ground. I don't want to have to recreate all the afcads from scratch, but I can't see how else to fix it.

In effect I want to be able to raise the elevation of the entire airfield but as far as I can work out in afcad you can only change the elevation of the runways? Is this because the taxiways just sit on whatever ground level is defined in the flatten file? Otherwise is it a case of creating a new flatten file?

Anybody got any ideas?
User avatar
Jenks
Forum Addict
 
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:58 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Whitby, Wellington

Postby ardypilot » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:28 pm

I finally got my flightsim set-up sorted - although most my airfields for some reason are now just above the ground or in shallow depressions

This has happened to me, change your 'TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL=**' line in your fs9.cfg to 'TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL=19'

Great JSG there too- I was down at the Hauraki Aero Club ealier this holidays :D
Intel Core i5-2400|8GB RAM|ATI Radeon HD 5750 (1GB)|1TB Seagate Barracuda|Windows 7 64 Bit|FSX Gold Edition|24" AOC Widescreen
User avatar
ardypilot
NZFF Pro
 
Topic author
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:01 am
Posts: 6779
Location: Auckland

Postby Snowman » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:06 pm

Also, for those using Auckland Airports 2006, and may have missed the mentioned flatten required for Ardmore for 20m mesh in the instructions....................

Flatten.0=110,S37 1.45,E174 57.57,S37 2.65,E174 57.88,S37 1.92,E174 59.30,S37 1.38,E174 58.92

This stops the airport from being partially buried in hollows.........

Some assorted pics of the Ardmore scenery in Auckland Airports 2006, used with the above flatten in 20m mesh, and RealNZ Auckland City, and also with the static aircraft removed from the scenery for a very big improvement in fps..........

http://z11.invisionfree.com/nzff/index. ... topic=1364

http://z11.invisionfree.com/nzff/index. ... topic=1204



Lawrie. >nzflag<
Last edited by Snowman on Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Image
User avatar
Snowman
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:52 pm
Posts: 2424
Location: Tauranga, NZ.

Postby Charl » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:11 pm

The topic does come up again and again, as folks re-install or reconfigure.
Please post specific problems and specific fixes here, without too much distraction.
I'll edit and refine the topics as we go so there is a long-term library for future use.
User avatar
Charl
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:28 am
Posts: 7173
Location: Auckland

Postby Charl » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:46 pm

Here's what AFCAD does.
Remember that AFCAD is really a tool for AI aircraft, to tell them where to go, and where to park.
It has the spin-off that it also has visual effects that can be used for scenery design.
When you set up a new airport using AFCAD, you enter an airport elevation.
All taxiways are then at that elevation.
They have the nice property that they flatten the terrain, irrespective of mesh.
This can often give rise to trenches or plateu effects if the airport AFCAD data doesn't match the mesh you are using.
A quirk of AFCAD is that runways do not flatten the terrain, even though you enter their elevation.
So you can get a situation where the mesh creates visual terrain a meter below the AFCAD runway which then floats in the air.
AI planes will taxi in midair too.
Conversely if the mesh is higher than the AFCAD runway elevation, the planes will be submerged.

Flatten utilities simply override the scenery mesh you are using, and create a rectangle (usually) at the specified elevation. Thus terrain, taxiways, and runways can all be made to agree.

The latter-day GNZLAP AFCADs (Pack 4) explore the taxiway properties by inserting a dummy taxiway under the runway, and so create a flatten effect for the runway too.
Last edited by Charl on Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Charl
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:28 am
Posts: 7173
Location: Auckland

Postby Charl » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:52 pm

A totally separate issue is how your rig reads the mesh files you have installed.
Make sure your fs.cfg file uses the correct values for your mesh, otherwise you get strange peaks and valleys which will mess up your airports.
Read the readme!
It will tell you what to change, for example:
'TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL=XX' line in your fs9.cfg to 'TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL=YY'
Last edited by Charl on Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Charl
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:28 am
Posts: 7173
Location: Auckland

Postby Jenks » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:26 pm

so... after much experimentation, I find that there doesn't seem to be a simple solution :(

If I set the TERRAIN VERTEX to 19 it almost cures most of the airfields - a fair few are still in shallow depressions or on small plateaus - but they are useable. Unfortunately I get strange dips/peaks in other areas eg RealNZ Wgtn gains a few sizeable dents. I can fix that by setting the VERTEX back to 21... but then I screw up my other airfields again.

All I can conclude is that I need to create new flatten files for my most used airports (and try adjusting the afcads as well I guess) and just try and ignore all the floating runways et al.

The really frustrating part? Before I reinstalled everything, it was all working nicely. I have no idea what is different :blink:
User avatar
Jenks
Forum Addict
 
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:58 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Whitby, Wellington

Postby Christian » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:30 am

ok, changing the vertex level from 21 to 19 changes the mesh resolution from 20m to 75m. If you paid for the 20m mesh, this doesn't make much sense. The real fix is to address the airports (unfortunately). All default airports SHOULD sit on a flatten which overides the mesh (these flattens are in the default scenery). Issues should only crop up for 3rd party airports which don't supply correct flattens (I suspect the older ones). I hope this makes sense.

Christian
Breathtakingly gorgeous FS landscapes for New Zealand.
Visit Sim Pilot Experience now:
http://www.simpilotexperience.com
Follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/ChristianStock
User avatar
Christian
Forum Addict
 
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:03 pm
Posts: 426
Location: melbourne

Postby Jenks » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:55 pm

Thanks Christian - that makes it much clearer. I never knew exactly what changing the vertex level was doing.

I have paid for the 20m mesh so I guess it is a case of addressing the third party afcads to make them compatible. So one last question if I may. If I simply remove an afcad will it remove the flatted/raised area around the airport, or do I have to hunt down a separate file somewhere?

Thanks for clearing this up.

Steve
User avatar
Jenks
Forum Addict
 
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:58 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Whitby, Wellington

Postby Charl » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:00 pm

Short answer is: generally yes.
Unless you have flatten lines in the scenery.cfg file, in addition.
See Snowman's post above, for example.
Robin could add a comment here, because I know his scenery does things to airport elevations, too.
Last edited by Charl on Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Charl
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:28 am
Posts: 7173
Location: Auckland

Postby Jenks » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:09 pm

Thanks Charl.

I'm looking at getting a large GA field available so I can park all my Southern Cessnas while I am checking the repaints :D

Was just going to add more parking at Ardmore or Paraparaumu, but can't get either of them functioning at the moment. Might just create a 'pretend' airfield for testing purposes for the moment.

Long term, I don't know how I'm going to get it all sorted though :(
User avatar
Jenks
Forum Addict
 
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:58 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Whitby, Wellington

Postby Christian » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:35 pm

It is indeed a problem, and just demonstrates how poorly FS handles this issue. Unfortunately, MS haven't addressed this in FSX. I'd love to fix this for the whole country, but as you realised this is not trivial, nor a 10 min job. There are some 3rd party addons which help create flattens...

Christian
Breathtakingly gorgeous FS landscapes for New Zealand.
Visit Sim Pilot Experience now:
http://www.simpilotexperience.com
Follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/ChristianStock
User avatar
Christian
Forum Addict
 
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:03 pm
Posts: 426
Location: melbourne

Postby macca22au » Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:31 am

UK 2000 have produced a whole set of adjustments for UK airports to fit the Horizon photographic scenery, and involved not just flattens, but also adjustments for highs and lows for other airports. Gary Summons and his team did a great job. Unfortunately it doesn't get rid of the cliffs that surround many airfield because of the intrinsic problem of FS requiring runways to be horizontal where in the real world they are vastly uneven. In UK2000 Gary has now come up with a technique that replaces the cliffs with gentle slopes - it doesn't solve the problem but improves the visuals. Their new Bristol has this new approach - which is a great advance.
macca22au
 

Postby Charl » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:52 pm

For users of GNZLAP, 10 Squirrels, and other AI projects, here is a list of non-standard AFCAD numbers.
The plan is not to duplicate these in NZ otherwise boats will end up in the sky!

ICAO LONG LAT EL CITY
NZ01 S41* 17.18' E174* 0.50' 0 Cook Strait
NZ02 S41* 16.31' E174* 47.46' 0 Cook Strait
NZ03 S41* 17.20' E174* 47.06' 0 Cook Strait
NZ04 S41* 17.18' E174* 0.50' 0 Cook Strait
NZ21 S38* 41.43' E176* 3.45' 1177 Taupo Helo
NZ22 S39* 9.44' E175* 29.34' 2813 Chateau Strip
NZ23 S36* 50.98' E174* 45.74' 473 ASB Helo Pad AKL
NZ24 S38* 6.25' E176* 13.26' 983 Rotorua Gondola Helipad
NZ25 S38* 4.81' E176* 17.77' 978 Rotorua Mokoia Helipad
NZ26 S38* 14.11' E176* 28.87' 2670.5 Rotorua Mt Tarawera Helipad
NZ27 S36* 44.55' E174* 49.25' 111.5 HeliTranz Albany
NZ28 S37* 57.20' E174* 27.95' 256.1 Piha Helo
NZ31 S41* 19.71' E174* 48.31' 39 Wellington NZWN Helipad
NZ32 S40* 54.17' E174* 59.49' 50 Paraparaumu Helipad
NZ41 S41* 17.74' E173* 13.70' 16 Nelson Helipad
NZ42 S41* 7.26' E172* 59.52' 39 Motueka Helipad
NZ43 S40* 48.9834' E173* 48.5859' 12 Marlborough Helipad
NZ51 S43* 30.76 E170* 19.02 6392 Tasman Glacier
NZ52 S43* 21.46' E170* 8.03' 305 Frans Josef Helo
NZ53 S43* 45.88' E170* 7.99' 2152 Mount Cook Helo
NZ54 S43* 33.89.0000' E170* 14.0000' 6373 Tasman Glacier WP1
NZ55 S43* 39.0100' E170* 11.7000' 6373 Tasman Glacier WP2
NZ56 S45* 1.19' E168* 44.32' 1175 Queenstown Helipad
NZ61 S45* 05.86' E168* 28.17' 2490 NZQN L WAKATIPU WP1
NZ62 S45* 01.98' E168* 39.47' 1050 Queenstown Helipad
NZ63 S44* 52.19' E167* 55.17' 6348.9 Te Anau Waypoint
NZ64 S44* 34.01' E167* 58.98' 6435 Milford Sound Waypoint
NZ72 S40* 12.43' E177* 16.39' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHE1
NZ73 S40* 12.42' E173* 33.37' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHW1
NZ74 S40* 12.42' E177* 16.39' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHE2
NZ75 S40* 12.41' E173* 33.37' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHW2
NZ76 S40* 12.41' E177* 16.39' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHE3
NZ77 S40* 12.40' E173* 33.37' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHW3
NZ78 S40* 12.40' E177* 16.39' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHE4
NZ79 S40* 12.39' E173* 33.37' 1200 RNZAF Waypoint OHW4
NZ80 S36* 10.25' E175* 32.70' 1000 RNZAF Waypoint P3-1
NZ81 S34* 19.01' E172* 35.52' 1000 RNZAF Waypoint P3-2
NZ82 S42* 04.72' E174* 47.79' 1000 RNZAF Waypoint P3-3
NZ83 S37* 48.99' E179* 02.33' 1000 RNZAF Waypoint P3-4
NZ84 S47* 15.19' E169* 38.34' 1000 RNZAF Waypoint P3-5
NZ85 S46* 27.69' E165* 38.77' 1000 RNZAF Waypoint P3-6
NZ86 S40* 12.43' E175* 23.01' 167 RNZAF Waypoint OHE5
NZ87 S40* 12.42' E175* 23.01' 425 RNZAF Waypoint OHE6
NZ88 S40* 12.41' E175* 23.01' 425 RNZAF Waypoint OHE7
NZ89 S40* 12.40' E175* 23.01' 425 RNZAF Waypoint OHE8
NZA1 S38* 41.40' E176* 3.44' 1171 Taupo Floatplanes
NZO1 S40* 12.4178' E175* 23.1774' 164 Ohakea(F16_1)
NZO2 S40* 12.4258' E175* 23.1487' 164 Ohakea F16_2
NZO3 S40* 12.1142' E175* 22.9438' 164 Ohakea Helo 3
NZO4 S40* 12.0931' E175* 22.9325' 164 Ohakea Helo 4
NZW1 S35* 42.10 E174* 18.58 131 Whangarei/St Johns
User avatar
Charl
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:28 am
Posts: 7173
Location: Auckland

Postby macca22au » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:03 pm

Horizon Simulations GenX photographic scenery of England and Wales produced the same problem all over the country.

To cope with this someone or some group prepared a set of flattens, highs and lows which could be downloaded from UK2000. These files then had to be located in the correct positions in the Scenery Library.

It was a remakable effort that distinguished between those airports which would float and those that had aircraft up to their 'knees'. With the result that no longer are taxiways and runways separated by canyons and valleys. Teeside was particularly bizarre until these generic corrections.

However the plateau effect does still exist, and Gary Summers with his Bristol has now developed a technique which allows him to 'smooth' the vertical walls into slopes that run gently into the original terrain.

NZ seems to have some great AFD and AFCAD designers and it should be possible to replicate what was done for the UK.

Maybe even the author of Ardmore might work on a flatten, or a high or low to get the airport more realistically located on the original scenery.

I know this sounds like cheap advice. However I have to admit to having no skills whatsoever in scenery design so I depend on others to do the work --- and i am grateful for their efforts.
macca22au
 

Postby Kelvinr » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:14 am

macca22au wrote:
QUOTE (macca22au @ Jul 21 2007, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Horizon Simulations GenX photographic scenery of England and Wales produced the same problem all over the country.

To cope with this someone or some group prepared a set of flattens, highs and lows which could be downloaded from UK2000. These files then had to be located in the correct positions in the Scenery Library.

It was a remakable effort that distinguished between those airports which would float and those that had aircraft up to their 'knees'. With the result that no longer are taxiways and runways separated by canyons and valleys. Teeside was particularly bizarre until these generic corrections.

However the plateau effect does still exist, and Gary Summers with his Bristol has now developed a technique which allows him to 'smooth' the vertical walls into slopes that run gently into the original terrain.

NZ seems to have some great AFD and AFCAD designers and it should be possible to replicate what was done for the UK.

Maybe even the author of Ardmore might work on a flatten, or a high or low to get the airport more realistically located on the original scenery.

I know this sounds like cheap advice. However I have to admit to having no skills whatsoever in scenery design so I depend on others to do the work --- and i am grateful for their efforts.


I think that would be great! Ardmore is one of the busiest aerodromes in NZ, why not do it some justice. I fly out of Ardmore through my PPL training and its a shame coming home to the aerodrome in FSX with so many elevation flaws. I'm not very good at this kind of design but if shown the right way I will try...a have a little time on my hands.
Last edited by Kelvinr on Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
--------------------------------------
User avatar
Kelvinr
Sim-holic
 
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 1:06 pm
Posts: 785

Postby wairoaboy » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:33 am

FSGenesis or FS Global 2008...whats your choice for new Zealand?
Thermaltake Level 10 GT Fullsize Tower
x3 27 inch Surround Asus ROG G-Sync Monitor
ASUS Extreme iv ROG
Intel i7 2600K 4.6ghz
EVGA GTX780ti Classified
EVGA 1600watt Supernova PSU
Corsair H100i Cooling
32gb Ripsaw RAM 2133
Logitech G940 Joystick Throttles Rudder
Logitech Z623 IHX Speakers
User avatar
wairoaboy
Member
 
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:28 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Rotorua/Wairoa

Postby creator2003 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:36 am

What are you refering to ? landclass mesh or afcad and for what sim version ,above is 2004
User avatar
creator2003
NZFF Pro
 
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:08 am
Posts: 4633
Location: Cant U C im LOCO


Return to Scenery

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests